THAT is What Made it So Darned Evil
This from Amy commenting on the previous story from Annette, deserves top posting - Cliff
I left the LDS church over this one too. There were, of course, other issues, but during the time of Amendment 3, I had finally had enough. I guess you could say that it was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
A few weeks ago, on Christmas day, a family member made a snide comment about a gay family friend who came out of the closet and left his wife after serving a mission and being married for a few years. I commented that while their divorce was unfortunate, it is also unfortunate that he was so encouraged by the atmosphere of the LDS church to try to “repent†and “changeâ€. It’s so sad that so many families are created and then destroyed this way.
About 10 years ago, after moving out of my parents house and meeting my first gay friends, I asked my dad over the phone, in all sincerity, what was so “evil†about being gay? He said that it was keeping people from procreating. THAT is what made it so darned evil. After my mom’s friend recently came out of the closet and left his wife, however, (she had insisted over and over again that he was not gay and that it was “slander†to say he was- everyone knew he was), she expressed the question time and time again “Why do gay men get married? It is so unfair to the women!â€
I wanted to scream at her: “Because the church you embrace and consider the only full “truth†TELLS them to! It TELLS them that with enough faith, they can CHANGE! So my question is: What is a gay man to do in order to make the moral decision in the eyes of the LDS church? Crawl under a rock and wait to die? If it’s evil to simply refrain from getting married and having kids but it’s clearly deceptive and unfair to marry an unsuspecting woman (or man), what is a gay person to do?
So that’s just a little family anecdote there, but I think it describes the mentality of the majority voice here in Utah and most people don’t even stop to think about how the logic fails pathetically! My brother doesn’t understand how I can be straight and such an advocate for gays. As we like to say: “Straight but not narrowâ€.
I agree that we need more straight advocates because this is not a gay issue; it’s a civil rights issue. People who aren’t bothered by the erosion of civil rights might feel differently when it’s THEIR civil rights that are in jeopardy.
And no, I don’t support civil unions for gays and I don’t support companies giving benefits to domestic partners. I support MARRIAGE. Equal rights. Equal responsibilities. Equal commitment. Nothing more; nothing less.
Amy
January 26th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
First of all, the real sad thing is that you don’t think being gay is a sin. Secondly the church does not tell practicing gays to marry.
January 26th, 2006 at 6:30 pm
I’ve been told at least a dozen personal stories from men who have confessed their homosexual orientaion to their bishops and been told to get married (to women). If the policy has changed since then I’d be interested to read about that.
January 26th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
There never was a policy as you state. First of all like I said, if he is a practicing gay, he will get dicipline action taken against him, not get instructed to get married!
January 26th, 2006 at 9:46 pm
joe Says:
January 26th, 2006 at 4:09 pm e
“First of all, the real sad thing is that you don’t think being gay is a sin.”
Joe,
Why is it sad? Who told you its a sin, and how do you decide to whom you should listen?
January 27th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
Joe,
I can understand that the foundation of your beliefs rests on you believing that homosexuality is a sin. I try to have a certain degree of tolerance toward people like you because I was raised the same way and I have a very deep understanding of the mind control and the hesitance to doubt anything that the brethren tell you to believe.
I am not at all sad that I am tolerant toward homosexuals. I have never been happier since the day I decided to leave the LDS church and believe what my conscience tells me and not bigoted traditions handed down from generation to generation.
Joe, I understand enough about the LDS concept of repentance and change and forgiveness to know that there is no better way for a gay man to prove to himself and the church that he has changed than to go out and get married.
In my post, I said that the ATMOSPHERE of the LDS church teaches homosexuals that they can change. If a bishop would never counsel a gay man to get married, that must mean that the bishop, called of God, believes that the man is incapable of change- even with God’s help.
So again I ask you: If a gay man is not supposed to get married anyway, WHERE IS THE SIN in simply practicing a lifestyle in which he can find joy and companionship with a monogamous partner? He will not produce children either way.
I would love it if you could address that question and that question only. I would love to hear your explanation.
January 28th, 2006 at 11:52 am
Maybe you all should rename the “Religion” section of OneUtah to the “Why Mormon Values are Lame” section? It be a more accurate description of the content.
Mike.
January 28th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Having studied comparative religion as an academic pursuit, I find troubling that some in the LDS community scorn self-criticism in a uniquely defensive way.
The Roman Catholic Church, Judaism, and many others, are regularly the subject of criticism from within and without.
Most find it healthy, honest, and empowering. The most enduring of all institutions are the ones that embrace and withstand introspection as healthy.
I am a staunch supporter of the LDS church though not a member. As such, it seems to me, the church’s greatest liabilities are members like Chris Buttars, and Larry Miller, who have fallen victim to the Utah sub-cultural competition to out-pious one another.
I think you know what I am talking about.
January 28th, 2006 at 11:53 pm
Cliff says “Who told you its a sin, and how do you decide to whom you should listen?”
God told me it’s a sin. I listen to God.
Who told you it’s not a sin?
January 28th, 2006 at 11:55 pm
Amy says: “So again I ask you: If a gay man is not supposed to get married anyway, WHERE IS THE SIN in simply practicing a lifestyle in which he can find joy and companionship with a monogamous partner? He will not produce children either way.
I would love it if you could address that question and that question only. I would love to hear your explanation.”
I thought I already answered this question. The sin is in practicing the gay lifestyle, period.
January 29th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
“I thought I already answered this question. The sin is in practicing the gay lifestyle, period. ”
Is this somehow the criteria for an intelligent, thought-provoking argument now?
Well, Joe,
You’re wrong because you’re wrong because you’re wrong because I say so because I wrote it in my journal last night and anything that’s written in my journal is the spoken word. Thus spake Amy. PERIOD!!!!!
January 29th, 2006 at 10:13 pm
Amy, you are not making much sense. I don’t recall setting any criteria for an intelligent argument. In fact I really don’t see this as an argument like you do. We both are simply stating our belief, you think it’s no sin, I think it’s a most heinous sin. There is no way to prove/disprove either side… until we meet our maker.