Cliff LyonWhat If God Existed?
I saw this on C-Span last night and gained a new reverence listening to Richard Dawkins intellectually crushing however kind and eloquent responses to some of the pitifully desperate questioners from neighboring Liberty University who so creatively tried to trick Dawkins into admitting that God might exist.
Many of the questioners announced themselves as either students or faculty from Liberty, rather than from Randolph Macon which was my host institution. One by one they tried to trip me up, and one by one their failure to do so was applauded by the audience. Finally, I said that my advice to all Liberty students was to resign immediately and apply to a proper university instead. That received thunderous applause, so that I almost began to feel slightly sorry for the Liberty people. Only almost and only slightly, however.
I highly recommend listening to the whole thing here or on C-Span at 9pm tonight.
Thanks to Norm at One Good Move
Religious fundamentalism is a real threat to religious expression and the survival of The Planet, especially Christian fundamentalism. You are a Christian fundamentalist if you cannot separate science and religion. That means you reject science whenever it conflicts with your particular interpretation of a bible story.
Such stubborn righteousness will kill us one way or another. Why can’t people see that religion does not belong in politics? Why can’t people find and express their inner spirituality privately? The Jews figured this out long ago.
Once upon a time it was forbidden in Judaism to even say the name of God out loud. So strong was this principle that God was spelled using a combination of Hebrew letters that were impossible to pronounce. The reason for this was that Jews believed that one’s relationship with God was so personal that the very sound of his name would contaminate that relationship.
There seems to be no shortage of Christian fundamentalist who do not know that the first five books of the Old Testament are the Jewish Torah.
I think we could all take a lesson from this. The most profound spirituality can only be found in the privacy of the inner self. The more you talk about it, the further away it goes. IOW, keep it to yourself for the sake of The Planet.
November 12th, 2006 at 9:08 pm
This works both ways. You rant about the Religious Right, but the Religious Left tells us that G_d wants bigger government and higher taxes.
If you can’t legislate morality, then you can’t legislate compassion or charity.
By the way, don’t interpret this as objection to welfare, etc. I am just illustrating that if you don’t want the Religious Right telling you in the name of G_d what to do, then you have to take the same position with regards to the Religious Left.
It just chaps my ass when I donate voluntarily to charity but the Religious Left tells me that I am not charitable or doing G_d’s will when I don’t support 46% marginal individual income tax rates (federal and state combined).
November 13th, 2006 at 7:34 am
Acually, I think you are making leap so huge it doesn’t deserve a response. Perhaps I am wrong.
November 13th, 2006 at 9:31 am
Sorry Cliff your dodge is lame.
This isn’t a leap at all. Leftists have tried many times to co-opt the God vote the way Cornholio describes. Take a look at Steve Olsen’s campaign website for example.
I support religious Democrats who run for office and am glad they are willing to do so in the face of the many anti-God nuts on our side (see some of Cliff’s previous “religion” posts for examples). That said I don’t think we are doing well when we try to make the argument that the charity Jesus asked of us is the same as government forcing us to pay more taxes to fund a bigger welfare state.
November 13th, 2006 at 10:17 am
In the end it will all be a good lesson cliff, for both of us.
The Jews figured this out long ago? You have got to be kidding. I can only think of the jersy jews lined up to kill arabs in the name of their religion and people. wehat a joke. Disingenous maybe?
I guess this is why, the areligious jews court evangelical cristian right then. I guess they have kept their own concepts of being the chosen people on the sidelines, when jews are supported by wackos that buy directly inot their own religion. This is what I’m talking about cliff, you being entirely full of shit.
Your story ‘aint washing, and now people will know.
November 13th, 2006 at 1:47 pm
Jeremy,
You and Cornholio seem to be having the same knee-jerk reaction to what I meant as an accusation that the religious right is trying to use government to force their particular religious worldview down our throats.
Let me be clear, I am talking about the unending string of message bills and the institutionalization of hate and discrimination as a right, the attempt to fundamentally alter the meaning of the first amendment and the outright pandering to the Christian right.
To suggest as you do that, “I don’t think we are doing well when we try to make the argument that the charity Jesus asked of us is the same as government forcing us to pay more taxes to fund a bigger welfare state.” suggest that you missed my point.
I don’t think you can find any sort of comparable evidence of the intrusion of DOGMA into politics on the left, including Olsen.
Olsen argues that Christian principles are closer to the Democratic ones than what the new Republican ideology.
That is a far cry from saying “we are on the side of God,†and “the constitution was inspired by God,†and creationism should be taught side by side with evolution and homosexuality is a sin, and a zygote should have stronger governmental protections than a returning veteran or pension less retiree.
I don’t know how you could have so thoroughly missed my point. Only you can speak to that. But please don’t try to tell me there is a preponderance of democrats saying we should help the poor because Jesus said to.
I’m anxious to clarify this.
November 13th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
Let’s get back to your ridiculous statement of Jews leaving their religion out of politics. I would have to say that for those Jews that are Jews, i.e. religious Jews, their politics are their religion. You have been living in a state that is exactly the same, maybe as you are Jewish cliff, you have displaced that part of the reality of your own people, onto your poor mormon neighbors.
Those Jews who are not religious believers, would be orphans to the cause of israel itself, and are only tolerated because their is no gaza to send them to. That and family sentimentalism. How can anyone be Jewish without believing in GOD? You can be a zionist, or an israeli, but you are certainly a Jew in name only.
Is an ex lds living in Utah a Mormon. NO! Is she an Utah resident American, YES! Are these 2 ideas seperate in our country still? YES! Are they for Jews….? Do those that don’t believe exploit the fears of their believing brethren?
What does anyone, anyone think?
November 13th, 2006 at 2:58 pm
Cassandra (Glen),
And what exactly is the Jewish God? Is she the same as the Mormon God?
Did you know we have great “out” gay Rabbi here in SLC?
How does God feel about angry personal attacks?
Since you feel so compelled to vent our personal issues in public, why don’t you tell our friendly readers how you feel about the Holocaust or the “hoax” as you put it?
November 13th, 2006 at 3:02 pm
The Jewish God(yahweh)would say that I would be within my rights to stone your atheist ass, refer to the Torah for what they say about liars.
My consideration of what the Mormon god is, has been fairly well established in my writings with Ed. From the perpective of those that are content not to define God, I say “who cares”. But to be Jewish, Christian, Mormon, you have to believe in the same God or be open to sniping from the likes of me that can grapeshot holes through the entire tale.
As for the gay rabbi, it is clear that when it comes to cults and religions, you make it up as you go along. For the purposes of Old Testament Jews, no gay man can be a rabbi, and for that matter neither can a woman.
If you must insist on your pervasive lying go ahead, I have never called the holocaust a hoax, my own grandmother threatened with tranportation to the camps for defending her Jewish neighbors. There won’t be peace Cliff, and your only defense will be the moderation button, which will de-facto label you, everything I have stated.
There was a holocaust in which Jews, Germans, innocents, disabled and dissidents were killed. I have never called the holcaust a hoax, but I have refered to what Raul Hilburg calls the “holocaust industry”.
For those of you who do not know, Raul Hilburg is THE pre-eminent holocaust scholar, he teaches at University of Vermont, political science, and teaches a specific class on “IT”. He states unequivically that the maximum total of Jewish dead stands at 5.2 million, and then many of them died of disease and starvation. The claims of killing and burning are clearly overstated. My point would be,…
WHAT PURPOSE DOES IT NOW SERVE TO OVERSTATE THE NUMBERS OF JEWISH DEAD?
A discrepency of 800,000 people is no small potatoes, and as far as I am concerned, 1 false person not counted either way in constant statements is criminal. So this is the part of the holocaust industry I object to. Why do Jews continually overstate what their own best scholars have defined as TRUE?
Using the IBM system of primal mecahnical computing(proprietary technology from America), the nazis determined that there were at most 450,000 Jews living with in Germany. The rest who were killed, came from Eastern Europe and Russia. Obviously Germans take the blame for all of this, much as ALL of US will take the worlds blame for killing innocent Iraqis, and poisoning the mideast, and the world, with depleted uranium.
Once again if one looks at todays’ figures for the number of deaths at Auchwitz, at the very museum itself, the number of estimated dead has been rounded down to 1.5 million, down from a former estimate of near 4 million. At the museum itself, who cares what I think?
Jews need to fess up to the deception, as much as anyone who lies for a self serving purpose. You don’t have to, because since you don’t believe in God, you have a hard time claiming to be a Jew. For once in your life be an AMERICAN.
November 13th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
As for the Torah(OT), I am within my rights to cheat non-believers, and to put to death anyone that breaks the commandments.
Ironic isn’t it that Christians utilize the Old Testament to support the NEW, when Jesus in no way would allow what his own people(Jews) would do in the case of a convicted sinner, by then they couldn’t kill Jesus themselves or they would face the threat of those that loved him, so in the manner Americans today get used to fight Jewish enemies, those Jews(sanhedrin) decided to get the Romans to do the dirty work for them.
Is it any wonder the entire nonsense runs in non-sequiters, and confusion. Why do Christians support Jews that are the progeny of those that rejected their savior? For my part, I DUNNO, but it sure confirms them as pudding headed dumb bunnies to me.