Cliff LyonCan’t We Just Leave God Out of It?
Why do people feel the need to convince the rest of us that God created the universe? The science of evolution does not threaten my spirituality. Why should it threaten anyone else’s?
Questioner: In continuation of the last fellows question, heh heh. The problem is that you’re applying natural laws to God whereas he claims to exist outside of them. Therefore he does not necessitate a beginning unlike matter on the other hand which necessitates a beginning.
Dawkins: Well isn’t that just too easy. You talk your way out of having to provide a rational argument by just decreeing by fiat that God, [audience applause] that God simply declares himself outside matter and therefore doesn’t need the same kind of argument as anything else. If you’re convinced by that kind of thing, your welcome.
Thanks again to Norm at One Good Move His is simply the best blog around.
November 13th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
Let me refer to this article in Slate by Jacob Weisberg. Brief sample quote:
“Evolutionary theory may not be incompatible with all forms of religious belief, but it surely does undercut the basic teachings and doctrines of the world’s great religions (and most of its not-so-great ones as well). Look at this 1993 NORC survey: In the United States, 63 percent of the public believed in God and 35 percent believed in evolution. In Great Britain, by comparison, 24 percent of people believed in God and 77 percent believed in evolution. You can believe in both—but not many people do.”
November 13th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
“You can believe in both—but not many people do.†This is the kind of unfortunate hyperbole that gets people all riled up. There are many religions that have no need to reconcile science and evolution. Mormonism is one of them, Judaism another.
Too many Mormons do not realize that one can get a world-class science education at BYU.
We should be suspicious of any religion that asks us to choose between Genesis and science.
November 13th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
There is no way to leave God out of it. If you believe in a creator that judges us and provides consequences then how are we to ignore what we have been taught as moral sin? Of course then it is going to be political as a group attempts to break down that fundamental reality for a portion of society. I can never go away until people STOP believing in a DEFINED GOD!
If the eco-freaks take their “science” to its logical conclusion we may someday see people put to death for polluting Mother Earth. Religion takes many forms, science can be used to power many forms of political expression. For example; the “invention” of Eugenics, which was theorized in America, was utilized to destroy indigineous people the world around due to the then SCIENTIFIC FACT(not really), that they were inferior and would sully the gene pool. Who knows what politically driven science is supporting today that is in no way true.
I’m sure that when Galileo was alive his TRUTH was dangerous and almost got him killed, and of course remember Socrates and what was done with his truth.
Before I am done if Cliff allows, I will slay EVERY sacred cow(pumpkin?) and commence to have a bar-b-que. A truly beautiful, and somewhat apolitical activity, we can even roast veges on it, for you vegans, how is that ?
November 13th, 2006 at 4:06 pm
In my 20 years or so of involvement with conservation groups, I’ve met plenty of people that cassandra might call “eco-freaks.” With the possible exception of some Earth First! folks, never did I hear the kind of extremist ranting we get on this blog on a daily basis.
November 13th, 2006 at 4:35 pm
Richard, I am refering to the kind of people that burned down the Elk Lodge at Vail.That is Earth First, no?
Those people are a bit off tilt. I am content to watch the current freak show with the comfort that at this rate there is likely no way we are going to last indefinately. At such time as we are gone, geologic time will take care of most of the troubles we created. Everything else around us during our current incarantion is just damn unlucky, a lot like the dinosaurs when the comet hit.
Pray to god he exists, because there may seemingly be no clear path for humanity to ballast itself.
Less people for sure is the #1 way.
Richard; everything on this blog is clear well thought out and levelheaded. This is oneutah, where the opinions and exchange of ideas is open and polite. A place where we can all be together, a place where as long as you let me live my fantasy reality, you can live in yours… and we can be friends.
This way we can build consensus, which will lead to better outcomes for all of us, because you know… it takes a village(idiot) to bring the world closer in harmony, so we can all equally consume our fair share at the corporate troughs, thereby continuing our lifestyle while promoting our Freedoms, which many in the world seem to hate…there’s a tongue in cheek rant for you
November 13th, 2006 at 7:45 pm
“A man treats a motorcar as foolishly as he treats another human
being. When the car will not go, he does not attribute its annoying behavior
to sin; he does not say, ‘You are a wicked motorcar, and I shall not give you
any more petrol until you go.’ He attempts to find out what is wrong and to
set it right. An analogous way of treating human beings is, however, consid-
ered to be contrary to the truths of our holy religion….
… The essence of the conception of righteousness, therefore, is to
afford an outlet for sadism by cloaking cruelty as justice.”
–Bertrand Russell, “Why I am not a Christian,”
pp. 40, 43
“Unreachable Storm”
“To derail concern over whether you should _support_their_policy_,
the PR system focuses attention on whether you _support_our_troops_ –
meaningless words, as empty as the question of whether you support the
people of Iowa.
“That of course, is just the point: to reduce the population to
gibbering idiots, mouthing empty phrases and patriotic slogans, waving
ribbons, watching gladiatorial contests and the models designed for
them by the PR industry, but, crucially, not thinking or acting.
–Noam Chomsky, “Post War Teach-In,” _Z_, Apr. ‘91
“We have too many men of science, too few men of God. We have
grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected the Sermon on the
Mount . . . . The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom,
power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and
ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about
peace, more about killing than we know about living.”
General Omar N. Bradley, Chief of Staff, United States Army
Boston, November 10th, 1948
COMMITMENT
Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw
back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative and
creation, there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills
countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely
commits oneself, the providence moves too. A whole stream of events
issues from the decision, raising in one’s favor all manner of
unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance which no man
could have dreamed would have come his way. Whatever you can do or
dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it.
Begin it now.
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
We should be on our guard not to overestimate science and scientific methods when it is a question of human problems,
and we should not assume that experts are the only ones who have the right to express themselves on questions affecting the organization of society.
Albert Einstein, Scientist
“The pioneers of a warless world are the youth who refuse military service.”
— Albert Einstein
“I refuse to accept the cynical notion that nation
after nation must spiral down a militaristic stairway
into the hell of nuclear destruction. I believe that
unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final
say”
-Martin Luther King Jr.
“
November 14th, 2006 at 5:23 am
Everything on this blog IS clear, well thought out and levelheaded. About time.
November 14th, 2006 at 8:49 am
cassandra– The people who burned down the Vail buildings were Earth Liberation Front, with no connection to Earth First! as far as I know. That’s just a point of information, since I hold no brief for Earth First! You accuse “eco-freaks” of wanting to execute people, I’m just saying that’s not true.
November 14th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
I accuse them of nothing, yet if you are burning buildings without care as to who may be in them, well clearly that does not matter to them. It de-facto makes them a certain kind of people. I guess by now most would refer to them(elf) as “terrorists”.
November 14th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
Earth First! is a non-violent eco group. Earth Liberation Front is more radical and has used vandalism as a tool before. I don’t think they’d do any executions, though.