Cliff LyonThe New American Fascist Unveiled
Most likely because my Jewish father escaped a Nazi camp, I was raised with an acute sense of the horrors of the Holocaust and the powerful admonition that we ‘never forget.’ So it came as a very unpleasant surprise to discover at the age of 44, that many Americans HAVE forgotten, or more likely don’t understand the Holocaust and that this evil lurks in America today.
Indeed, it was not until Bush’s re-election campaign that I became viscerally aware that the potential for true evil in varying degrees exists just below the surface in a portion of our species. Understanding this evil has become an obsession.
This is not about Jews. This is about a little known but well documented character trait in approximately 23% of our species who are subject to irrational even atrocious behavior under certain circumstances. I believe it stems from a languishing primal survival instinct called tribal loyalty, and it is the catalyst for all evil; race, class and religious discrimination, every genocide, massacre, crusade, and most wars including Iraq and the subsequent sectarian violence.
The self-organizing phenomena of social networking and blogs in particular, provide immediate access to people most at risk of condoning, supporting, facilitating and/or participating in such evil. Possible only now, right-wing blogs provide us with stunningly consistent confirmation of the traits that define the authoritarian follower — as eloquently described in John Dean’s book, Conservatives Without Conscience. I recommend listening to this interview before reading on.
MilBlogs (Military Blogs) are a veritable Petri dish of these dangerous communities and a proving ground for the primary traits of the obedience to authority and tribal loyalty.
In the last 24 hours a MilBlog called A Soldiers Perspective (ASP) illustrates these traits with military precision. John Dean describes one of the primary traits of a group that suffers from blind obedience; “there has to be an opponent and enemy to coalesce around to hold the thing together.”
At ASP, that enemy is an angry mother called ‘MilMom’ who armed with solid facts and emotion over the death of her son in Iraq (unbeknownst to the ASP readers) became the singular focus of attack in past two days.
True to form, of yesterday’s eight posts at ASP, one entitled Merry MilMom-Free Christmas announcing the banning on ‘MilMom’ received 22 comments (as of this writing) while the other seven posts averaged 3 comments each. The scuffle that resulted in the banning of MilMom generated a remarkable 67 comments. A quick review of that exchange shows how easily these people are provoked when faced with inconvenient realities. I will dissect that exchange in a subsequent post.
Even more frightening is the current front-posted Christmas video in which the blog owner in full-dress marine uniform next to a cowed looking wife, gloats about their united victory over “troll psychos”. Of course he is referring to ‘MilMom.’ The sickest part of this video is that the mention of “troll psychos” represents the only connected moment between the couple, in which they actually look at each other with glib approval as if the vanquishing of ‘MilMom,’ represents the substance of their emotional commonality.
Next comes the son, also in the full-dress Marine garb of the lowest ranking non-commissioned officer who astride his cherubic new wife, gives an obedience, silent, chuckle in a bonding gesture to his Dad, the full meaning of which is revealed only when you know that Corporal boy did the heavy lifting of banning ‘MilMom’ on the CO’s orders.
The most difficult and perhaps dangerous fact of this ‘type’ is that these people do not realize they are subject to evil and in the absence of an authority figure, may go through their entire lives without committing evil.
Unfortunately, along came Bush, Cheney, Rove et. al. In an era that might have otherwise witnessed a continued trend toward a more peaceful world, the neo-cons have actually managed to get seemingly peaceful people to believe and repeat the fantasy that AK-7 wielding Muslim terrorists are lurking right around the corner ready to fight it out on the streets of Shitferbrainsville, Kansas.
I encourage you to know this enemy. Read Dean’s book. Watch the video.
A vast majority of Conservatives are drawn into the Leader/Follower archetype, where the Leaders are considered infallible, and the loyalty of the Followers is completely unshakable. About "23% of the populace falls into the follower category" said Dean. "These people are impervious" to fact, rationality and reality. And their "Numbers are growing".
Its one of the things that holds conservatives together…their dislike or hatred of those they perceive as liberal, or basically anybody who disagrees with them is one of the cohesive factors…There’s no question that particularly the followers, they’re terribly aggressive to help their leader out, they will do whatever needs to be done to help their authority figure, they will blindly follow, they will stay loyal too long.”
There has to be an opponent and enemy to coalesce around to hold the thing together.
Season’s Greetings
December 24th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
Cliff, thanks for the comedic props. I truly got a chuckle. A more educated personality would recognize that I’m not in the Marines and that I’m wearing an Army Dress Blue uniform. But, I appreciate the traffic.
Funny, how you mention the ONE person I ban on here that disagrees with us as opposed to the multiple other personalities I haven’t that disagree. You see, the difference is that MilMom lacked common decency and acceptance of other opinions. She ignores calls for proof while demanding it from others. Had I known she lost a son in Iraq, the results wouldn’t have been any different. She’s rude and doesn’t respect the very simple rules I’ve established for commenting on MY website. She can start her own and say all she wants. Or, she can be respectful and pose her points at my place. She didn’t and now she can’t.
December 24th, 2006 at 5:09 pm
CJ, I read the ’scuffle’ under the ‘Bias’ post. I must say, it is remarkable how no one including you addressed any of the facts MilMom raised, but rather attacked her.
An objective reading of the exchange reflects a complete disregard for fact but instead a vicious attack by Terri. Is Terri your wife?
Very telling, is the hypocrisy of claiming media bias while quoting Bozell. Do you really think you are kidding anybody besides the ‘followers’ on you site?
As much as you feel secure in your little fantasy-based community, the pile-on to crucify MilMom speaks loudly to the premise that the primary dynamic of your community is to attack personally anyone who disagrees.
As many relevant points that MilMom raises, not one person refutes her facts.
Most telling, is that you do not (and I imagine will not) address the Dean book, because you are it in spades.
December 24th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
CJ,
You are welcome to the traffic. It appears you need it.
Whats with the 981,120 visitors as contradicted by the 400/month as shown here
Either someone is lying, or your traffic has dropped more dramatically than the troops support for this war and Bush the Idiot.
December 24th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
Just tell us CJ, are you among the 23% or not? Is Brent Bozell THE MOST RIGHT-WING SHRILL on the planet or not?
December 24th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
Cliff,
CJ is not my father, neither figuratively or literally. Nor does he order me around.
You’ve done so much objective research into our psyche that you forgot to include the obvious research of everyone that has overstayed their welcome on the blog. I can think of no less than five people in the last six months that have violated our simple policies regarding discussion.
As for the “obedience [sic], silent, chuckle in a bonding gesture to his Dad, the full meaning of which is revealed only when you know that Corporal boy did the heavy lifting of banning ‘MilMom’ on the CO’s orders.” I hadn’t seen CJ’s video when Anna and I made ours. The chuckle seen in the video was at my wife who had made a joke that didn’t get sent to CJ to include in the final video. And for what its worth, I had nothing to do with the banning of MilMom. CJ did that all on his own.
You speak of “inconvenient realities.” Funny you mention the word reality. MilMom wasn’t able to provide one shred of evidence to back any of her claims. Not a single one.
December 24th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
I think MilMom points out many facts.
Lets start with a simple one. Almost nobody including the Joint Chiefs of staff think the surge is a good idea.
Do you?
December 24th, 2006 at 5:47 pm
No, I do not think the surge is a good idea. The best plan is to take the politicians out of the war and let the military win it.
December 24th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
UA, I wouldn’t hold out much hope that these people will answer any questions. They well into retreat battle mode.
They will will only focus on irrelevant minutiae like which uniform they are wearing or who is whose father where they can win little battles.
They will not fight on the battlefield of fact because they cannot. They are not stupid, just desperately flailing about for any vestige of honor.
December 24th, 2006 at 5:54 pm
Thanks Cpl M,
So what should the Military do to win and how will we know when we have won?
December 24th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
Holy Fuckin moley,
I just read through Bias.
These people are vicious rabid dogs. Thank GOD our military are not totally filled with such people.
I’d like to see them address the next post down (Patriotism) about how 72% of troops thought we should be out of Iraq by this February.
ASP people certainly do not represent the rank and file, nor do they seem to respect the troops or most Americans.
I have to agree with MilMom. If these guys really cared about the troops, they would be screaming at the top of their lungs. ‘BRING THEM HOME’!
This is Bush’s problem. Let the Carlisle group sort it out with the Saudis.
December 24th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
No surprise you have to register to comment on A soldiers Perspective. Most right-wing blogs require jumping through hoops to comment.
They are very afraid and for good reason.
December 24th, 2006 at 9:38 pm
Great article, Cliff. It’s nice to know that someone else will share the spot I’ve often had, of watching my backside. And left and right sides. No kidding. Ed Firmage
December 24th, 2006 at 10:06 pm
ROFL……you guys are living in your own little bubble here, as you accuse the readers of ASP of doing, and are also on the same kind of attack and smear that you accuse the ASPers of doing to milmom. Oh, the irony of it all, that you nice folks can’t even see your own blindness; and your refusal to believe in anything other than what gets filtered through your thorn-tinted lenses.
Please don’t tell me that you folks consider your judgment sound and not impaired by your own prejudices and ideology? That you aren’t suffering from Bush derangement syndrome? I can admit to my bias. Can you?
not one person refutes her facts
WHAT FACTS?!?
They will will only focus on irrelevant minutiae like which uniform they are wearing or who is whose father where they can win little battles.
Seriously? That was a lame reaction, Cliff. CJ publically embarrasses you for your ignorance and rather than ‘fess up, you deflect it with that bit of weakness?
Am I being nice? No. But I’m just playing the way you guys seem to wish to converse.
December 25th, 2006 at 8:03 am
For the record Lynette, no I’m not CJ’s wife, however I personally know CJ and know first hand the type of person he is. As far as me viciously attacking MilMom…… Please. All I did was point out that she was resorting to name calling once again. For that, I got the response from her stating, “Eat me Terri”. That spoke for itself and just added substance to the point I was trying to make about her resorting to that type of behavior and showed who was really attacking who. I don’t have a problem debating a topic with anyone, and have at times been persuaded by someone elses logic, but when someone begins DEMANDING that I believe the way they do and starts RESORTING to calling people names and making THREATS to bring all of her like thinking friends down on CJ’s blog if we don’t start seeing things her way, then that I DO have a problem with that and tend to disregard what they’re trying to say, as the fanatical rantings of someone trying to bully others into following their lead.
December 25th, 2006 at 8:26 am
Don’t go far Terri,
I’m re-assembling your exchange with MilMom for all to see, and decide for themselves.
December 25th, 2006 at 9:20 am
Well Cliff you would do well to address the atrocious behavior of misrael, as you are a member of this tribe, it would serve you well to attack IT, as IT is a very integral part of the origins of the very conflict we are fighting, and losing I might add. What a rube this country is for falling into the misrael trap. We that are honest about it, know that we have been led into this disaster by bushes’ tribal penchant to listen to dual passport zionists, that spawned the bulk of the hysteria and lies in the run up to this “war”.
Should you succeed in getting the idiot bush and his war supporters to leave the mideast, you will be ensuring that israel will then be forced in the manner of the 23% you claim to suceptible to atrocious behavior in a crisis you describe. I can only imagine that the 66 ignored UN sanctions laid on the nation of misrael is the hallmark of a self absorbed tribe that is really a problem for all involved.
Needless to say your averge IDF/likud Jew is as much a psycho as your Kansas republican.
BTW approxiametely 23%? How asinine a number, how do you claim approximate 23%, that is quite specific? The use of such drivel reveals alot about anyone who would use it. Ever considered 1 in 4 perhaps? Anyway, properly led and educated people control there destructive minorities, and Jews would do well to control theirs, before the majoraty(the rest of the world) has to do it for them.
Who are you kidding Cliff?, it sure as hell have to do with Jews. However you should check into your own background, because as evidence isrealis have a far greater number of atrocious active tribal members than most and react in war criminal ways to transgressions against them. This is proven fact. In this way this troublesome triber vey much resembles it genetic brothers the palestinians.
Hey gee, I am glad to live in America where tribal psychos are well outnumbered by the rest of us.
December 25th, 2006 at 9:23 am
BTW Cliff; Merry Christmas, and the rest. You are a great and tenacious arbiter for reason and justice.
Your Servant, Glenn
December 25th, 2006 at 9:51 am
Lets review for a moment an exchange between MilMom and Terri from a post entitled Where’s The Bias?
The goal of this Top post by CJ appears to be to demonstrate a liberal media bias. But the substance of the post is a ‘Special Report’ (not a scientific study) produced by Brent Bozell. By any objective measure, Brent Bozell is considered extremely conservative.
It should also be noted that CJ quotes directly from the Bozell site, ‘a group of young determined conservatives set out to not only prove…’ thus by his own admission, acknowledging their conservative bias.
I think MilMom as a point when she asks CJ if he has ‘any integrity at all‘ in suggesting this ‘report’ should be sufficient evidence to support his implicit thesis.
But I think MilMom misses entirely the point of ASP which Cliff addresses so well in his post. Conservative authoritarians are not interested in fact based debate or truth, but rather validation of beliefs that support their leaders.
Hence Terris response is predictable.
Terri responds: “You know CJ, I don’t think MilMom will ever give anything any of us say the time of day. It’s pretty clear that her agenda is to do nothing more than come here and attempt to negate anything and everything positive that’s said about our troops and the job they’re doing.”
Terri’s statement above does not address the substance of MilMom’s argument, but is simply a characterization of MilMom’s agenda suggesting that MilMom is bad for challenging CJ.
Naively thinking the subject of the discussion is media bias, MilMom’s next post provides direct evidence that even a pro-military rag reports pessimistic news about Iraq.
Sue responds: “wow milmom, thats really on topic. what is your malfunction? get a life would ya”
For my own convenience I will just list Terri further responses noting that they are all consistently off topic character jabs.
Terri: “Unfortunately Ryan, there are a whole lot of people out there, who believe anything and everything the media tells them. A sad but true fact.”
“You know MilMom, i seems that you can’t control yourself long enough to post something without calling someone names and attacking people here because they don’t agree with you. It almost reminds me of grade school tactics.”
It should be noted at this point that MilMom has not called ’someone names’.
I must say, I think I am wasting my time here. For all the declarations by loyal ASP readers that they invite debate and differing views, it is fairly clear that both Terri and Sue tend almost exclusively toward character attacks while providing no evidence.
Probably the most oft repeated canard by Terri, is her ‘right to an opinion’. The next time Terri feels the need to defend herself by re-stating an erroneous reference to the first amendment, she should google “democracy informed consent”
December 25th, 2006 at 10:20 am
Glenn,
I would never suggest that the disturbing predilection toward unquestioning obedience to authority is exclusive to gentiles. In fact, I would suggest that Jews like Wolfowitz, Fieth and others suffer chronically from this primitive instinct.
As for the 23% number, I am simply using the number Dean uses from the video interview to which I link in the top post. I VERY HIGHLY recommend listening to it. I know you will find it edifying if not a intimately relevant to you own self- identification especially given your broad and ancestral study of Nazi Germany and obsession with the sport of Holocaust denial.
December 25th, 2006 at 10:48 am
What an idiot to use a number like 23% it leaves the reader of any brains questioning it as total bullshit.
I do not deny the WW2 holocaust, it occurred to near 60 million, and to members of my own family. What we now are undertaking is a rectification of the mythical number of Jews that died, (and how), DENIED by Jewish Pre-eminent scholars,(Raul Hilburg) not me.
Seriously though, it was likely worse to kill people under the threat of being killed yourself, as an objecting German soldier.
What a Jew had to do was be persecuted and be in the camp. I would take that any day over being forced to kill people, or else lose my life. I would rather be persecuted and simply lose my life. Such conundrums were not the problems of Jews. Yet it is your people that have turned the truth into the “holocaust industry” as Hilburg points out. DISGUSTING!! It is worth 100 million a year. That’s what it is ALL about.
Anyway the veil is falling and the release of David Irving by the Austrians before his term, for thought crime, right on the heels of Irans Holocaust summit, must have Jews that propagate the chosen number(6 million) in fits.
It interesting by the statistics given and accepted by anyone, that the number of Jewry in Europe, between the years of 40-48 actually increased. How is this possible if 6 million die? It isn’t, and you have been abused by your parents and people in believing numbers that are not true. Just like Americans are being served up now in Iraq.
I have asked, do you conceal the real toll of the”holocaust” for any purpose? Are you not a lover of truth and in depth study, or a simple propagandist?, Goebbels would be impressed by your efforts.
Hey, the whole world knows the facts, it is open to read. It is open, are you afraid of people examining the data, if so WHY? The aspersions cast by Jews upon people who wish to KNOW, unimpeded by the group with the most to lose, Jews, is obvious and patently disgusting.
Don’t know yet Cliff? I’m a JEW!!!! We are all JEWS, if you believe the bible knothead. You have served as the example of what a zionist is for my Jewish self, and we Real Jews are interested in Truth, unlike agenda driven zionists.
December 25th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Glenn,
Sounds like you’ve been hitting the eggnog pretty hard this morning. Do I understand you to say that the six million number is off by a few? How many Glenn? Ok, lets go with 5, 927, 001. Hows that.
On the other hand, since you are suddenly Jewish, but your immediate German family managed to survive WWII IN Germany, BUT some of your family were killed in the Holocaust of 60 million, wouldn’t that mean that the six million number might be a little higher?
BTW: Raul Hilberg is about as Jewish as you are.
Oh, and please do tell us WHO is getting rich off the “holocaust industry…worth 100 million a year”?
I figure I deserve some of that dough since I have ZERO aunts, uncles, or first cousins on my father’s side thanks to your immediate family (your most excellent father being an exception)
December 25th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
Glenn,
Please give my best to Hans and Delia if you’re still on speaking terms.
December 25th, 2006 at 12:25 pm
Be fine if you had any data to back it up. Take your word for it I suppose. People were persecuted, and killed, no doubt, many weren’t Jews. What the issue is, is determining what the actual number based on record, and the evidence in no way squares with the 6 million. It is a random figure. For you Cliff, assume another identity, this one is about to get mudded up.
The study is to be undertaken, it is inevitable and cannot be stopped. The use of the “holocaust” to justify all manner of bad Jewish behavior is soon to be over.
The cultural cudgel is broken, it is time to pick up the parts and look at what made it so deadly. Got a problem with that?
You don’t figure there weren’t Jews that served in the Wehrmacht?, well news flash, THEY DID!
YW; On the other hand, since you are suddenly Jewish, but your immediate German family managed to survive WWII IN Germany, BUT some of your family were killed in the Holocaust of 60 million, wouldn’t that mean that the six million number might be a little higher?
Tell me Cliff, how are you Jewish, how do you prove this? Is it possible many who claim Jewish heritage are phony, like ashkeNAZI Jews?
Furthurmore as German census placed German Jewry at 450,000, and there were more stated Jews AFTER the war, than accounted BEFORE it, it is clear that if anything the number would be lower.
December 25th, 2006 at 12:28 pm
Glenn,
Happy holidays to you and your sister and folks.
Let’s do Moab someday.
Nephi
December 25th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Dude were all right here with the gang. I have explained to my parents the statements you have made that you are fond of moderating. In fact, I have explained the whole sordid nature of your true thoughts. It is appalling. They forgive you in the spirit of Christian charity.
I can only think of the Lodge Jews I grew up with, it is with disgust that they would turn their back on you, their fellow Jew. They did not support zionism anynore than my German ancestors supported nazism, so we and they owe no one anything.
I am not responsible for your aunts and uncles, I would imagine there is a likely Arabs waiting for reparations from israel and us. They aren’t going to get it, likely neither will you. No reparations for me either.
To the victors go the right to lie.
December 25th, 2006 at 12:34 pm
Leave it to ant-christian, anti-military, anti-everthing but Hillary scum like you to smear two fine young men who are protecting your red ass around the world and in our own country. That’s standard or should I say standarten fare for fascist lefties like you. What I can’t forgive is malicious attack on these heroes wives. That’s even too low for you. Get off my planet.
December 25th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
Ok Neph, when? Meanwhile bring Cliff on down to Moab, the place that heretics were banished to in the bible when trangressing upon the people of zion.
December 25th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
PJ,
You may do well to consider that most Americans, American soldiers and most people on your planet, do not believe the US military is ‘protecting’ anyone’s ‘asses’.
I think the polls bear this out. Your uninformed righteousness does not reflect well on you commitment to informed consent. Furthermore, your erroneous generalization that those of us who do not support the Iraq Fiasco do support Hillary speaks to you general ignorance of Hillary’s position on this disastrous war.
You see PJ, Hillary DOES support this war.
Wild guess; intelligent, smart and educated are not words generally used to describe PJ.
December 25th, 2006 at 1:05 pm
Lynette,
I find it interesting how to took bits and pieces of the responses to that particular post, of course out of context. How about posting the ENTIRE list of responses to the blog so that people can read them in the context they were posted. Or better yet, anyone who wishes is free to visit ASP and read the blog for themselves. Here’s the link to that thread: http://www.soldiersperspective.us/?p=1519#comments Another link that might show what I was referring to, about MilMom’s name calling and threats is this one from early December in the post entitled “Iraq Survey Groups: Gold Star Families Disagree” , which is located here: http://www.soldiersperspective.us/?p=1466#comment-27887
December 25th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
Terri,
I believe I did link to the ‘Bias’ post multiple times. Naturally, I assume people will go there and judge for themselves. I also believe what they will find, and which remains the case, is you have still not addressed MilMom very salient point that quoting Brent Bozell to argue that the media has a liberal bias does not offer much basis for an informed discussion especially in view of the fact that there have been so many more neutral studies.
Thank you for linking to the Goldstar Families post. A quick review of that exchanges further reinforces the very reasonable suggestion that you are more concerned with your RIGHT to have an opinion rather than participating in informed debate.
You seem untroubled by the the needless death of our troops and even less concerned for the innocent Iraqi women and children.
I challenge you to answer one question; how many deaths are too many and for what result?
Can you answer that with a number, or will you forever evade the hardest questions?
December 25th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
Anyone want to talk about how this war has been forged by “leaders” in the US, led to their conclusions by dual passport zionists,…. and then evidentiary support for said policy was a pack of their forged lies?……….. With a clear and conscious support knowingly(really bad) or unknowingly(bad and stupid) of a VAST BI PARTISAN MAJORITY.
Hmmm, and one wonders why people ask questions of history forged by such a crew, or such a crew that would believe it all. No denial there, just asking for some accuracy.
December 25th, 2006 at 2:29 pm
Conscience (certainly not mine) I find polls useful as toilet paper only. Hillary supports whatever garners her votes, and to be called unintelligent, not smart and poorly educated by you is nothing short of the highest compliment for me.
December 25th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
Glen, tho Perle, Wolfewitz and others, certainly owe us explanations, it’s not really fair to try shoving it off on them alone. I, myself have repeatedly and unequivocally claimed responsibility, and I dare say there are others. Look, over there…it’s Dick and George and George senior.
December 25th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Well supposedly so, we are responsible, as in any crime, individuals hold responsibility for their actions based on misinformation or ignorance. We are guilty, consideration of extenuating circumstances weighed in sentencing.
However for the conspiracists, like the dual passport types I allude to(wolfowitless et al.), their crimes fall under the RICO statutes, the wilful disinformation, the ongoing nature of the crime….makes them ringleaders, so to speak, and every motivation for why these scum have done this to our country and the middle east should be looked at VERY carefully. Throw the book at them.
Then measure all to their Oaths, including the loser democrats, that let this all happen in plain sight.
God, please it is Christmas, all I really want is to know WHY people are allowing this in derliction of not just their Duty, but also their humanity.
People, JESUS HAS LEFT THE BUILDING!
December 25th, 2006 at 5:15 pm
PJ,
How convenient. You can simply dismiss out of hand any factual evidence that contradicts your narrow world view.
I suppose then that you also dismiss elections as a measure of the will of the people and the founding principles of self-governance?
So it would follow you are perfectly happy serving your dumbass masters as long as they belong to the Church of morons.
I thank my God public education is mandatory such that you can read the following words…may you suffer the pain of your stupidity forever a prisoner of you blissfull ignorance.
Which branch did you serve before your dishonerable discharge?
December 25th, 2006 at 9:24 pm
MacSockpuppets: Act I - OneUtah.org…
Act I, Scene One - Enter the sockpuppets.
A sockpuppet (sometimes known also as a mule, glove puppet, alternate account, or joke account) is an additional account of an existing member of an Internet community to invent a separate user. This may be use…
December 25th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
Cliff, I’m just curious about something. In which branch of service did you volunteered to serve? No, I did not serve and I have regrets every day for that. Yes, I am an ardent supporter of our military. And, yes, you have the right to choose otherwise.
So, I’m wondering, because I CHOOSE to support our military does your comment “This is about a little known but well documented character trait in approximately 23% of our species who are subject to irrational even atrocious behavior under certain circumstances. I believe it stems from a languishing primal survival instinct called tribal loyalty, and it is the catalyst for all evil; race, class and religious discrimination, every genocide, massacre, crusade, and most wars including Iraq and the subsequent sectarian violence.” mean that I fall in to that 23%? If that is your opinion you are FAR off base sir. It would seem you are far off base anyway.
My experience with friends, family and strangers is that until they begin to receive information from the main stream media AND milbloggers or men and women who have served in theatre they don’t truly get the entire picture of what is going on in places such as Iraq and Afghanistan. There is NEVER one side to any story. It would seem that you have some deeply rooted hatred yourself for the military in general. If that is the case it is a sad day for you and for any readers who spoon your information in to their brains as if it is the only set of facts.
I randomly select the members of the military I support from a myriad of sources. I have not met over 95% of them and probably never will. I suppose all of the letters and emails I get from them stating information counter to what you appear to represent is false? All lies? Made up mumbo jumbo they sit around making up to write to me? Hmmmmm.
There are no braver, valiant, honest, courageous, genuine people on this earth than our men and women in uniform. I thank God EVERY day and night for them and for their families. I’ll never be able to do enough to thank or support them.
And, no, I do not agree with all of the political posturing that has been and continues to be done with respect to Iraq. I’ll also add that many of the military personnel I support don’t always agree with decisions made by the politicians that filter down to them to carry out. HOWEVER, as was stated by others - if the military could/would be allowed to do what the military is supposed to do I daresay Iraq would be in the state it is in today. There are hundreds of positive and success stories coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Thank goodness for the (in your words) “veritable Petri dish” of milbloggers who tell us what they see with their own eyes on a regular basis.
I am simply and proudly an American. I choose not to register as a member of a political party. I don’t want to carry the moniker of Republican, Democrat, etc. I’m an American. And ss an American Patriot (NOT one who is radical by ANY means) I do find your comments about the gentlemen and their families at A Soldiers Perspective to be without conscience.
One last comment. I realize that not all Muslims are terrorists, facists and bad people. Do YOU realize that it only takes a few (relatively speaking) to threaten the safety, security and freedom that we enjoy as Americans today? Do YOU want your decendants to continue to enjoy those freedoms? I sure do. I think you need to add a few more colors to the picture at which you are looking. Black and white fading to gray won’t paint the entire scene.
December 25th, 2006 at 11:59 pm
CA Chik,
That 23% of our species exhibit an unquestioning loyalty to authority is not my opinion. You clearly did not to follow the references.
That said, I still cannot understand why you would say it is ‘far off base’. How do YOU explain Nazi Germany and the holocaust and the myriad of other irrational group participation in human attrocities? Do you just think it happens because a bunch of people just follow orders that go against human nature?
I did not suggest that you belong to the 23% because I have never seen you name here before.
As for your comment, “if the military could/would be allowed to do what the military is supposed to do I daresay Iraq would be in the state it is in today”, …I’m unclear. Please clarify.
I thought the military is commanded by a civilian democratic government. the idea that they be “allowed to do what they are supposed to do” raises many questions. What is it exactly they are supposed to do. I’m guessing we will both agree their mission is unclear.
Along those same lines, I would ask you to clarify what exactly “support of the military” means? Do you mean I should agree with whatever mission they are given? Are you suggesting they should they be allowed to pursue their own goals and methods without the consent of our civilian government? If they are sent into war without a clear mission or for an illegal war, does a challenge to that mission neccesarily consitute non-support for the military? I hope not. To suggest otherwise is a catch 22.
I do certainly value our troops commitment to service and I fully appreciate their valor, bravery and dicipline, especially in light of the terrible position we find ourselves in Iraq — created by the Bush cabal. I believe they are mutually exclusive.
Finally, your comment, “Do YOU want your decendants to continue to enjoy those freedoms?” does not logically follow the premise, “it only takes a few (relatively speaking) to threaten the safety, security and freedom that we enjoy as Americans today?”
I do not believe one hundred 9/11s would threaten our freedoms unless our government suspended them. Do you?
Chik, I appreciate your thoughtful engagement on these issues. I hope you will review the sources I reference rather than assume my conclusions are simple opinion. I do my best to inform myself from the best most objective sources so I can say I agree with these people or this interpretation as opposed to forming opinions and then selectivily seeking validation for those opinions. I believe it i my responsiblity to determine the value and bias of my sources, not the conclusions of those sources.
This is the fundamental difference between tribal loyalty vs. informed objective pursuit of reasonable, rational context.
I look forward to your thoughts (in the morning).
Cliff
December 26th, 2006 at 8:03 am
Cliff,
This last comment you left is the most reasonable thing I’ve read from you on this website. I wait with interest to see if your correspondents have anything useful to respond to you with. I have my doubts. Once an argument moves from angry accusations to real discussion of the issues based on the facts their side runs into real problems. American action in Iraq was a bad idea before we did it and it is currently a great harm to our national reputaion. America isn’t safer because of the invasion of Iraq and the current administration has done more to curtail our freedoms than Al Queda could in a million years on their own. The Right has a lot to answer for. Too bad they usually drop out of the discussion at about this point.
December 26th, 2006 at 10:15 am
Good grief. I’m glad I took a day off from blogging. BTW, “A Soldier’s Perspective” isn’t worth my time and I don’t look at it any more.
February 28th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
[...] This exchange is taken from our friends at A Solider’s Perspective. I have written about them many times before. [...]