Cliff LyonHow to Avoid Running Over Iraqi Children
There air was still milky brown this morning as the dust continued to settle on the blogo-battle field after yesterday’s skirmish between OneUtah and the mercenaries at ASP.
As I climbed down from my nocturnal perch still sleepy-eyed from a deep, well-deserved slumber, I managed to catch a glimpse of the enemy camp through a break in canopy. I immediately noticed a new layer of barbed wire encircling their bunker - a trench really, dug by hand and lined with old pee-stained mattresses gathered from the river bank under the bridge over Possum Holler.
I continued down and paused just below the canopy still eighteen feet from the base of the massive tree. As I peered down I could see one of the old mercenaries, a middle-aged woman who had driven trucks in Iraq stood in the center of a small ragtag group of the worn-out, hold-out, ex-soldiers. I stopped, holding my breath so I could hear. She was telling a story; a tale so horrible, it changed my view of the lost war in Iraq forever.
September 29, 2003 I am so glad that the kids at the border didn’t lay across the street. I know that they told us we were not to stop for anything. I know that they said the kids would move, but I am not sure that I could have done that. We were told that if the kids did lay across the road, to put our truck in the lowest gear and keep moving, the kids would get out of the way. I am just glad that I didn’t have to face that. There were so many of them out there begging for food or what ever. Some of them are so cute. Many of them didn’t have shoes. It is so hot out there on the sand. How can they stand it? This rips my heart out. I gave 2 little boys a bottle of water for letting me take their picture.
December 27th, 2006 at 10:25 am
I see Glenn H. went over and posted as houstonhottentot promply killing the conversation. He just couldn’t refrain for one post takin a shot at Bush.
I can’t imagine he’ll last very long unless he starts spuing his Third Reich jabber.
They’ve probably already banned him.
December 27th, 2006 at 10:58 am
He’s well on his way, that’s for sure. LL just shared with him the precautionary (watch your step, blotto) fact that CJ is mo. I’ll give him a day or two, max.
December 27th, 2006 at 11:10 am
Have you seen the video of poor Iraqi kids chasing an American truck to get a bottle of water? If there is another one of kids getting run over I don’t want to see it, this one is bad enough.
December 27th, 2006 at 11:25 am
In news unrelated to war, have you seen the video of the the incineration of poor Nigerians that attempted to get gasoline from holes in the pipeline, families kids etc. all roasted, and not the first time and not the worst. This is a major exporting oil nation, they should be well off…but, ah what the heck, that money is better off here with us.
A jerry can of gas is worth two weeks wages.
December 27th, 2006 at 11:46 am
Richard, thanks - I think - for sharing that vid clip. Wow, what great PR. I’m sure that kid will love our military for “sharing” that bottle of water for his efforts. What assholes; they should be reprimanded for stuff like that. It was thoroughly disgusting enough. I, too, don’t want to see any of kids getting run over.
December 27th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
Loser jerk-face. I guess that is what the MilBloggers characterize as doing great things for the Iraqi people. Oh well, I guess we should be thankful they’re not throwing poppies of opium at the kids. At least not yet!
December 27th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
Ha! Six of the last twelve comments over at ASP are from Glenn. He’s takin’ the ASP folks on a tour of Mormonism, Catholocism, illegal immigration, Washington politics, the Green Zone, fishing in Alaska and on and on. He’ll soon have their poor simple minds spinning so quickly out of control they’ll come beggin’ to have the likes of Cliff, MilMom and Nephi commenting again - at least our rhetoric is dependable!!
December 27th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
Let them answer any of it, every thing mentioned there is factual Milmom, they need to know what they are fighting for, slumming churches, slave labor, unethical american business people, you know the whole litany, might as well not have any illusions, or is that delusions. 3000 American soldiers are dead, it time to confront the why of supporting our policies at so many levels, not just the war.
I can see your methods of communicating have been a failure with them over there, so I will communicating with them in my way, we’ll see where it leads.
December 27th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
Glenn,
Soon you will come to realize that ASP folks don’t care why they fight, just so long as they get to fight. Whether the reasons is good or bad, it just dosn’t matter to them. They will create reasons from wholecloth - e.g., how much good they are doing the Iraqi infrastructure and bridging gaps with children. You’re headed to the same end on ASP as me, Cliff and Nephi - “you’re banned cause you don’t think like us.”
But good luck trying, just the same! :)
December 27th, 2006 at 4:15 pm
watch me, and you too ASP since you’re both all about reading each others bullshit, and commenting, so here is my brand of it, WANNA PLAY?
Did I mention I get banned and re-allowed to post here? It is odd. I really just want to stay banned, but cliff derives some purpose from it.
What I really wish to talk about is the weapons they are using to kill insurgents, I hear that the .50 cal is still every bit as lethal as ever. What is the strategy to stop IED attacks? Are they making progress?, that sort of thing.
December 27th, 2006 at 6:11 pm
MacSockpuppets: Act II…
Cliff seems to have quite the obsession with every single thing going on here after CJ and I exposed his sockpuppeting. I appreciate the attention, Cliff, so keep writing about us and make sure you reread Act I. You missed a couple of bolded lines and …
December 27th, 2006 at 6:53 pm
Act II. Very nice.
But the prize goes to LL, who actually figured it out - with the assistance of Occamm’s Razor, that is!
December 27th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
Cliff,
I can also give ya lessons on how to not get yourself or your crew blown up by an IED or road side bomb while driving in Iraq, if ya would like them as well. It can be quit a nerve racking thing. Course, if there is a daisy chain of 25 or more IED’s then you are SOL. But just let me know and I will send those lessons right over to ya.
Cindy
December 28th, 2006 at 9:02 am
For someone filled with such disgust at all things ASP Cliffy you sure do spend a lot of time over there and a lot of breath over here. Very interesting.
December 28th, 2006 at 9:07 am
Cliff,
Someday they will figure it out. LL came close. Got jello?
December 28th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
Sue, think of us as like anthropologists, you like a remote tribe with a strange culture. I think I have made it quite clear that I am fascinated by people like you - tribalist.
Have you ever read, What Wrong With Kansas, or Christian Nation?
Get used to it. Blind obedience at the expense of truth is very dangerous in our culture. Ask any Black, Gay, Mexican or Atheist person.
You frighten us.
December 28th, 2006 at 1:47 pm
Cliff,
It seems that lots of people on both sides of issues on this site exhibit some form of tribal mentality. It’s just more difficult to see it in ourselves. Most people, including often me, already have their minds made up. This is most apparent when they resort to vulgarities and name calling. One person (among others) that I have particularly appreciated on OneUtah is Richard Warnick, because of his usual patience in explaining his side of the issue without rancor and (I hope) his interest in opposite points of view.
Last I checked, the only person on earth infallible is the Pope (at least some say)! I think it would be much better for the rest of us–here and on Soldier’sPerspective if it is occurring–for us to approach any conversation with an “I might learn something if I listen for a while” attitude instead of the tribalist “I hate your guts and you’re a stupid friggin idiot” mentality.
Our opinions lose a great deal of authority when they stop being persuasive and start being aggressive.
December 28th, 2006 at 3:29 pm
See Cliff, there you go assigning me to something that you have no idea about. You don’t know me, or my reasons for reading ASP, or Oneutah for that matter. And if you were anthropologists you would be doing objective research not subjective as you are.
Frank I do agree with you whole heartedly that vulgarities and name calling do not make good debates. Neither do personal attacks against someones family. This is the lowest of the low and I think you would agree. I do disagree however that the Pope is infallible. I would choke on that description coming from any ones mouth. I think that the Pope will have a lot to answer for come his judgment day and I don’t really want to know where they send the people who know about pedophiles and are in a position to do something so they don’t hurt any one else and then look the other way instead.
And Cliff if as you state, ” As any Black, Gay, Mexican or Atheist person.
You frighten us. ” is how you really feel, then you have bigger things to worry about than what goes on at ASP.
December 28th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
Ah but Sue, you reveal much more than you know (especially when provoked).
Observing your last comment:
1. You don’t know me, or my reasons - Attack the messenger/message
2. Frank I do agree with you whole heartedly - Tribal identification
3. vulgarities, name calling, personal attacks, lowest of the low. - Repetition, value judgments, grasping for solid ground.
BTW: I meant “Ask any Black…”. Sorry
BTW II: Sue, I’d like for you to point out where I have attacked some one personally (as opposed to attacking what they think
December 28th, 2006 at 4:15 pm
I don’t know if I have a tribe, but if I had to join up with one it would be called the Reality-Based Community.
December 28th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Frank,
Thank you for the thoughtful observation. I hope with what follows to draw some very concrete distinctions for you as they relate verbal engagement and right vs left wing blogs. I think you will relate because you straddle both.
Firstly, you must accept that there is a tradition of intellectual debate that has been passed down since Plato all the way to the dinner tables of many EDUCATED American families. Please don’t think I’m criticizing the uneducated, let call it classical education (not required for dentists and plumbers).
I cannot teach you the rules here, but I can give you some examples.
For person educated in classic debate (and relationships) there is a big difference between saying:
1. You are stupid and..
2. Your idea is stupid
Another example, more subtle.
1. Your refusal to address the facts represents a danger to society
2. YOU represent a danger to society.
I think Sue does not understand this distinction. In my family #1 would result in punishment, #2 would demand supporting argument which follows a whole other set of rules…premise, premise, premise, conclusion. Each premise must be accepted by your audience.
OneUtah is not a discussion between friends, it is like ALL progressive blogs about information sharing and healthy debate. Now you can certainly argue that some of us are friends, but that is not my point, therefore to do so is OFF POINT and gets you kicked out of class till you read Plato again.
The Right Wing blogs ARE about friends, bonding, mutual validation. Any disagreement is taken personally. Facts are never debated, only validated.
Studies have been done which show that on right-wing blogs and radio call-in shows A LARGE MAJORITY of comments/caller express agreement. Next time you listen to Limbaugh/Hannity/O’Reilly, count how many callers start by saying “I agree with you 100%â€.
Lastly, (and I would love to get into this more deeply right now, but I haven’t the time), lets be very clear, ALL of the conversation coming from here to ASP is about WAR, public sentiment, politics, and debate. There is an argument in EVERY POST. By contrast, Sue will absolutely NOT discuss or debate fact or evidence based objective observation.
See the diff? Thanks for listening.
December 28th, 2006 at 5:55 pm
Cliff,
If I felt like this blog were always “Platonic” I would feel much better about things. It usually is, but some commenters have their moments.
I disagree with your statement about right-wing blogs wherein you say “Facts are never debated, only validated”, specifically as regards ASP. In the MilMom debate (by the way, who is Milmom, really?) someone at ASP (Terri?) made a statement that when there is vigorous debate on the site, they are fine with it and actually have changed their view on the issues; it’s when the hot and steaming invective is hurled that they get turned off. I try to be that way, too–here, on Serving Iraq, and on Simple Utah Mormon Politics. (I did delete several comments from one commenter at Serving Iraq because of the invective and repeated claims that I was an Iraqi baby killer, but I don’t even know how to ban someone.) It is likely true that many or most Right Wing blogs are about mutual validation, but on occasion I feel that way about One Utah, and I know some liberal blogs (Juan Cole is the most prominent) that have refused to publish my comments or have used epithetery to ‘put me in my place.’
I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with you about Hannity, Limbaugh, (I don’t know much about O’Reilly). I admit there are things I agree with when I listen to Limbaugh occasionally (and with my favorite-Michael Medved…and I catch bits and pieces of Glenn Beck as well) but as a rule, I think people should think more for themselves and question things more often.
Hannity seems to be full of himself and makes statements that are positively mind-boggling, the most recent having been his tirade against the newly elected congressman who wanted to take his oath on the Quran. When he claimed to charge nothing for appearing at UVSC a couple years ago, yet ended up charging more than Michael Moore, I decided he was nothing more than a political playboy.
I don’t know if Rush still says it, but it used to really aggravate me when (if even in jest) he used to tell his listeners not to worry about the news over the weekend, because he would tell them what they needed to know on Monday.
Lastly, I don’t agree with your characterization of Sue.
December 28th, 2006 at 6:12 pm
Cliff, one would actually have to give a darn about what you thought to be provoked. I do not. As you, I do like to amuse myself now and then.
Now to your little talking points. First, I attacked no one by pointing out that you don’t know me. You yourself claimed that CJ doesn’t know you. So you have been guilty too my friend if that is what you are sticking to.
Second. By your analysis, any human being that agrees with someone else’s point of view about anything is “guilty” of tribal mentality. So let me see, that would make your entire blog including all your multiple personalities of the tribal mentality since you all agree on everything.
Third, I don’t need to grasp for solid ground. One only needs to look at all the posts on ASP coming from oneutah to understand what I was talking about. And you DO know what I am talking about. Don’t feign innocence here, if you want me to discuss with you.
And as for your BTWs I will accept your clarification. And for the second one, go back and look at your post with the Christmas video from ASP. Nuff said.
Now as for your above comments saying I will not discuss or debate fact or evidence based objective observation, why won’t you? I enjoy a spirited debate as your Nephi persona has already attested to. But I will not debate when there simply is no point to it. I have better things to do with my time than trying to explain myself to someone who simply isn’t listening and only wants to ram their objective down my throat. This has been the complaint on every single post on ASP about your readers and personas, Cliff and you know it.
December 28th, 2006 at 6:33 pm
Sue,
I don’t know what else to say to you. Please understand (without taking offense) I have no interest in being your friend. My only interest is to gather evidence to support my thesis.
Your now predictable predeliction for dismissing my points by fiat indicates the limits of your willingness to engage beyond simplistic and basic retort.
Finally, I must tell you, I am not Nephi, though I will admit Nephi is sitting right next to me at this moment. He is a man of great pedigree and and passion. And he is your friend.
I encourage you to answer the question posed in the current top post.
December 28th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
damn funny!
December 28th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
Cliff,
I may be inferring the wrong thing from your post, but I infer that you think there are a lot of Iraqi children run over by American vehicles. Before we left Kuwait and headed into Iraq we were briefed on several things, including (in passing) the possibility of children trying to stop our convoys so that mujahideen could ambush us. I heard of one story (I suspect it was apocryphal) where something like this happened, and a child was actually run over. But I do not know of any such thing happening. So I take issue with what appears to me to be a misleading and exaggerated post.
Richard,
I agree with you about the video of the soldiers teasing the kids with the water bottle. I was embarrassed by it. Funny as it may have seemed to them at the time, it wasn’t, and such things should never happen. Beyond the fact that we are in essence guests in their country, we should never look down on other people and treat them in such a degrading manner.
December 28th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
No Frank,
The White Rose story has nothing to do with my question to Sue.
It sounds like maybe most Americans don’t know about the cost in Iraqi lives, children included.
I suppose if it mattered we would all know.
January 20th, 2007 at 5:10 am
Aren’t all wars mindless and an exercise to boost egos od leaders who think they are powerful and mighty. I am sure that is how Hitler felt before his misadventure. Killing millions of Jews without any mercy was to his sick mind the right thing to do. So are we sure that killing innocent civilians in Iraq is making the world a better place, I think not.
February 16th, 2007 at 10:33 am
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