Cliff LyonA Question for Sue
As much as I have tried to ask questions
designed to spark a thoughtful exchange of ideas at ASP, no one from that blog has answered ANY of my questions.
Here is a simple question. I beg a response from Sue or her friends.
Many, many children have been killed and maimed in Iraq.
Question: How do you feel about the deaths of so many innocent children?
Update: Sue answered as follows:
My answer to your question, as a Mom, is that I’m disgusted at the number of kids being killed and maimed…the insurgents should be ashamed of themselves.
Fact: The vast and unacceptable number of dead and maimed Iraqi children are the result of American bombs and collateral damage.
December 28th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
So long as I have gas for my Hummer and snowmobile, why should I give a damn?
Of course, the above answer is facetious and entirely ridiculous and outlandish, but I wonder at times how many people in this country, especially wealthy right-wingers anxious to maintain their wealth, purposefully bury that answer in the back of their minds and refuse to acknowledge the truth that we are at war precisely so the rich and wasteful may fill their Hummer(s) and snowmobile(s) with gasoline.
I tried one time to argue the need for such a paradigm shift in America’s collective consious - e.g., drastic reductions in consumption through drastic change in behavior - on RedState.com and was immediately shut down as pro-terrorist. Folks on ASP struggled with the concept - greatly as it is so at odds with the administration group think and fear mongering - but at least they acknowledged the idea as having the potential for future solutions to the terrorist cause.
I think Sue may have been one of them at ASP, which speaks loudly for her willingness to at least think outside the box. As I have said before, debating with Sue can be quite enjoyable, but it takes a bit of effort - perhaps from both sides.
December 28th, 2006 at 5:48 pm
Hey Cliff, how do you feel about the large number of Palestinian children maimed and murdered by the Israeli scum force of sissies and fags. (They can’t fight or wn against even moderately well armed muslems).
Interesting that you will condemn ameriki atrocities but always remain silent about israeli crimes against humanity.
You remind me of Ross Anderson. You couldn’t care less about how many Iraki kids are killed. This is just a vehicle for promoting yourself.
Pathetic and obviously very gay.
Go ahead and censor this comment because I am posting it on the sltrib blogs.
December 28th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
A second question for Sue:
What does Nephi have to do to convince you that He is not Cliff or MilMom?
We had such great chats back at ASP. Nephi’d like them to continue w/o all the unnecessary hostility.
N
December 28th, 2006 at 7:35 pm
ok
First I will address Cliffs question. I will answer you, and I fully expect that you and your readers will jump all over me and to that I say so what. Because I at least put up.
My answer to your question, as a Mom, is that I’m disgusted at the number of kids being killed and maimed…the insurgents should be ashamed of themselves.
Now, my question for you Cliff is, Why aren’t you upset that the insurgents are using kids as human shields and killing and maiming their parents?
Now to (Nephi), at the risk of getting yet another of (Cliffs) ridiculous rants about tribal speak, I do agree that we in America are too dependent on foreign oil and gas. We need to fund wholly the production of alternative fuels. I don’t much care which way we go with it, but it has to be affordable for ALL Americans not just the ones who can afford a BMW or a HUMMER, which I definitely can’t.
As for you other question, I couldn’t honestly tell you. Your referring to yourself in the third person in some posts really is creepy.
December 28th, 2006 at 8:24 pm
Sue,
Thank you for answering the question. Are you absolutly sure the majority of Iraqi children have been killed by insurgents or US bombs?
Is the answer to that question important to you? Would the truth affect your feelings about US policy and actions in Iraq?
December 28th, 2006 at 8:46 pm
cliff
Any death of a child or innocent civilian in Iraq is tragic and regretful, but the numbers that have died so far pales in comparison to how many will die if we cut and run out of Iraq as you advocate. More civilians died in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia after we left Viet Nam than during the war. The same thing will happen, but in much larger numbers if we leave prematurely. In addition, the numbers that have died so far is just a small fraction compared to those that died under the rein of terror of Saddam Hussein.
December 28th, 2006 at 8:52 pm
Ah Cliff. I answered you. You have no answer for me??
December 28th, 2006 at 9:19 pm
Well Sue. You did answer me. And I answered you with a very reasonable question.
If the insurgents are responsible for killing most of the dead Iraqi children, it will fundamentally alter my entire perspective.
However, I am very sure thst US bombs are the primary cause of the death of those children and frankly, I am so sure I refuse to take the time to find references for you because you will simplt attack the messenger and dismiss the evidence.
This gernerally where the discussion ends.
Should you which to ‘play along’ in the reality based game, the next step would be for you to find some kind of reasonable objectively based evidence that your premise (insurgents) is right, I am wrong, that most for the dead Iraqi children have died as the result of collateral damage of the unprecidented number of bombs we have dropped on Iraq.
Because what I am really interseted in is finding out just how carefully you evalute the source of your facts/assumptions. My educated guess is, your hear what you want and say, good enuf/
Hey, wanna get really freaked out? Compare the tonnage of bombs we’ve dropped on Iraq vs the Japanese in WWII. Its really easy to find.
December 28th, 2006 at 9:34 pm
Ken is a blowhard without facts. More vietnamese died after we left vietnam than before? You are either insane or a total liar.
Three days after the last chopper lifted off the u.s. embassey in Saigon peace descended on that country.
And the vietnamese freedom fighters let the collaborators off with a few years in a re-education camp. They were lucky they were not executed.
And don’t blame pol pot on anybody other than the good old usa.
December 28th, 2006 at 10:21 pm
One of the most informative things I’ve read about Iraq is the special from the Columbia Journalism Review (CJR), Into The Abyss: Reporting Iraq 2003-2006: An Oral History.
Most of us have seen this iconic photo, which will no doubt go into the history books to illustrate the Iraq occupation. Here’s the caption: “Five-year-old Samar Hassan screams after her parents were killed by U.S. soldiers in Tal Afar. Soldiers with the 25th Infantry Division fired on the Hassan family car as it unwittingly approached them during a dusk patrol. Her brother was paralyzed from the waist down and was later treated in the U.S. January 18, 2005. Chris Hondros/Getty Images.”
The CJR offers an oral history from photographer Chris Hondros, who witnessed the tragic incident and remarks that something similar happens nearly every day in occupied Iraq.
Excerpt: “The car kept coming. It was dark. Sure enough, somebody fired some warning shots, the car kept coming. And then they fired into the car. And it limped into the intersection, clearly no longer under its own power, just on momentum, and gently came to rest on a curb. I was kind of paralyzed, and then slowly walked to the car and, sure enough, I hear children’s voices inside the car, and I knew it was a family. The doors opened; the back doors opened, and kids just tumble out of the car, one after one after one — six in all. One was shot to the abdomen, though we didn’t realize he was shot at the time, though he was bleeding profusely and as soon as he dropped, there was blood in the street. The soldiers realized it was a civilian car. They ran and grabbed all the kids and ran them to the sidewalk. In the front seat, what ended up being the parents were killed, riddled with bullets, instantly dead. The children in the back were, incredibly enough, okay, except for the one kid who was winged in the abdomen…
Now, when you’re in a car driving around Iraq and you hear shots, your first instinct is to speed up, because either someone’s shooting at you for some reason or somebody’s about to get into a battle nearby. Either way, you don’t want to be around there; you want to get out of there. And then, the headlight range — by the time they actually get into the region of your headlights, forget it, that’s way too close, they’re already engaging you by that point, shooting you up by that point. So that’s why they didn’t stop.”
This CJR oral history is well worth reading, and let me say it covers the positive aspects of our involvement in Iraq to the extent those exist.
December 29th, 2006 at 1:41 am
See Cliff this is what you always do, you and your “little friends”. You can never answer a question that is posed to you. You demand an answer and when you get one, it’s not good enough for you. You always demand more without answering yourself. It’s really a very childish game. It is not discourse. You only demand more so that you can pick someone apart and mock them for their beliefs and ideas. This is not acceptable to me. Now because I won’t play with you, you will now tell your readers that I am not up to your little game. It’s a catch 22 for me. I am damned if I answer and damned if I don’t. Game over, you lose.
December 29th, 2006 at 7:22 am
Sue,
May I assume you found the answer and you don’t like it?
That’s right, we, (my country) are responsible for the deaths of the great majority of dead and maimed Iraqi children.
I can well understand your inability or refusal to admit that. It must be nearly impossible to acknowledge this horrible truth and continue to support this President and his War of Choice.
You will note, I predicted that you would not answer the question further supporting my thesis (denial).
You may call it a childish game, but my “little friends” and I are deadly serious because the children are seriously DEAD.
I apologize if I mocked you. I meant only to hold you to a higher standard of truth.
But to say the insurgents are responsible for killing the majority of the DEAD Iraqi children is neither a belief nor an idea, it is a falsehood.
As much as you feel you have the right to your ‘beliefs’ and stubbornly hold them in the face of contradictory fact, you cannot also demand the respect of those of us who walk in a reality based community.
I repeat. The purpose of this blog is the free exchange of ideas derived from vigorous investigation, objective evidence, and fact.
I frankly don’t see much point in your being here if you won’t play on that level. I can’t imagine anyone here is interested in a simple your ‘right to your beliefs.’ It’s kind of a non-starter. Sounds more like religion to me.
But you are welcome anytime.
December 29th, 2006 at 8:40 am
Ken At 650,000 dead we have killed more people in Iraq than saddam did. In addition, why blame saddam, he was only our stooge for 15 years? At one point he received 4 billion a year from us, and logistical and satellite support during the war with Iran. I am always amused when people claim saddam killed his own people. Kurds and Shia are not his people, and as far as he was concerned, just baggage. To take a look at the Shia now is to understand him. If you think the Kurds are peaceful, just watch what happens when they demand their own state. Turkey will destroy them and have them living in tents in the high desert again.
For the record Ken, saddam is going to hanged for killing 150 kurds, he claims tried to kill him. I’m sure he killed many more, and if you look at Iraq today, you may well understand why. Saddam was our boy then, as much as any US soldier is today.
Something to keep in mind you soldiers, our government isn’t particularly loyal, when troops or leaders become troublesome, our government has the particular tendency to DUMP THEM!
I guess Vietnam was not a poignant enough lesson on the habits of our government when it comes to war and failed policy and what becomes of the men and women charged with executing failed bloody policies.
December 29th, 2006 at 9:02 am
dear Sue; YW
“It’s a catch 22 for me. I am damned if I answer and damned if I don’t. Game over, you lose”.
This is typically the case when one is wrong, or is parroting bad information utilizing a belief construct. No matter what you say will be right.
And for the record, we all lose.
December 29th, 2006 at 10:04 am
That’s 150 Shia glenn! I stand corrected. But were all sure saddam probably killed at least 150 kurds, while we loved him, and looked the the other way.
Ah, lost love saddam, our champion in destroying our humiliators the shia iran, he is to now be hanged and the great empire has by its own unwitting hand brought the enemy to control that land that once was protected by our true love, saddam.
Instead after the break up from saddam, we have somehow adopted the bride of Frankenstien shia to be our new bitch over there. Mano, man is her momma goin be pissed, mama alyatollah shia iran. The tragi-comedy continues. Wouldn’t want to soldier that. It will someday make a Broadway show, or should.
F*ckin A democrats, impeach this president, and HURRY!
The 13 years of sanctions could well now be considered iraqs’ glory days if our plan to nation build goes any more successfully than it already has.
December 29th, 2006 at 10:58 am
Cliff,
In one of your comments you say that a “majority” of children killed in Iraq were killed by Americans. That is hard to believe considering the daily suicide bombings in busy markets and other places, but if you have stats, I am willing to be persuaded otherwise.
That being said, I am aware of two incidents when I was in Iraq of senseless (or accidental, depending on your vantage point) killings such as Richard referred to above. One was a very similar situation as the one he listed, with a family traveling in unfamiliar territory past Camp Ramadi at night; the daughter had been practicing writing in English in a notebook at the time of her senseless death. One was a senseless shooting of a female passenger in a car that turned around because it didn’t want to wait for a US convoy to get off its rest break and get out of the middle of the road (due to the incidence of vehicle bombs, Iraqis are accustomed to pulling to the shoulder of the road when American forces go by). These anecdotes spread like wildfire around our base, and were clearly mourned by the overwhelming majority of servicemen and women.
December 29th, 2006 at 11:23 am
On a contrasting note, I think it important to also report the good things that American service people are doing with and for Iraqi children. Otherwise we get the impression that American service men and women are unfeeling and uncaring. Here’s a link that helps to balance the scales, as it were.
December 29th, 2006 at 11:57 am
I saw many of the pictures that you have on this post not long after the “Shock and Awe” campaign in early 2003, so we can’t blame these on insurgents, as comforting as that may be to our consciences. As horrific as these photos are, I feel that it is necessary to view them to bear witness to the evil that our country is doing to others in our name. It’s a powerful reminder of my responsibility to try to stop the war in any way I can.
I also have no doubt that insurgents are also causing children’s deaths, but we unleashed the chaos that gave birth to that movement and so we are also at least partially responsible for those deaths as well.
We also need to acknowledge and take partial responsibility for the suffering and deaths of children worldwide caused by our weapons and munitions sales and aid to countries who have used them either on their own people or in wars of aggression. Iraq is just the tip of the iceberg as far as the suffering and death that our nation has caused in the world.
December 29th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
Frank, Here is the most scientific study done to date (Lancet). Naturally, it has been heavily criticized, but only by political forces sympathetic to the War and Bush.
Iraq Body Count attempts to detail every incident. You could spend days here.
Then, you have literally hundreds of reports like this one excerpted below.
Huguenin said the dead and injured in Hilla came from the village of Nasiriyah, where there has been heavy fighting between American troops and Iraqi soldiers, and appeared to be the result of “bombs, projectiles.”
“At this stage we cannot comment on the nature of what happened exactly at that place . . . but it was definitely a different pattern from what we had seen in Basra or Baghdad.
“There will be investigations I am sure.”
Baghdad and Basra are coping relatively well with the flow of wounded, said Huguenin, estimating that Baghdad hospitals have been getting about 100 wounded a day.
Most of the wounded in the two large cities have suffered superficial shrapnel wounds, with only about 15 per cent requiring internal surgery, he said.
But the pattern in Hilla was completely different.
“In the case of Hilla, everybody had very serious wounds and many, many of them small kids and women. We had small toddlers of two or three years of age who had lost their legs, their arms. We have called this a horror.”
At least 400 people were taken to the Hilla hospital over a period of two days, he said — far beyond its capacity.
There’s more, here
I warn you, this is a sickening endeavor which reveals certain uncomfortable realities. Our gov’t and media have gone to extraordinary lengths to prevent us from seeing the horrible realities of war.
I think it’s interesting. On the one hand, we know how horrible war is. On the other, we don’t want to see it everyday and we complain that the media only reports the bad news. Anyone who has been to war knows the reality. Americans don’t see shit. WE have NO IDEA.
December 29th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
What Cliff said– and let me add that Al Jazeera gives major play to the images our media don’t like to show. Imagine the effect on public opinion in the rest of the world. Actually, no need to imagine, here are the numbers.
December 29th, 2006 at 1:36 pm
Richard,
Great link. I am actually quite surprised, however, that 56% of Brits have a favorable opinion of the US. With Tony Blair’s poll rankings in the toilet, I would expect the percentage favoring America to be much lower.
December 29th, 2006 at 2:50 pm
I think most of the rest of the world understands that Bush is not the same as the American people, and that we hate him.
They also know much more about the stolen 2000 and 2004 elections than we do, because their media reported the courts findings in Florida and Ohio that our did not.
December 29th, 2006 at 3:00 pm
This post makes me think of today’s “Bushism” over at Waves of Fear:
“I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we’re really talking about peace.”
What a crap-bucket loser Bush is, and anybody who still believes in him is also a crap-bucket loser or, at best, extremely confused. Several folks come to mind, but names will remain unnamed, as they truly are greatly confused.
December 29th, 2006 at 4:16 pm
Here’s how you find out what is the right thing to do.
Step 1: Look at the pictures in this post. Don’t automatically go into justification or excuse mode — don’t try to place any blame (yet). Temporarily suspend your political ideology.
Look at those kids. Imagine the pain they feel (or felt). Imagine the pain that their parents feel (or felt). If you have kids it should be easy to imgaine how you would feel if something like this happened to your child(ren). Imagine what life must be like for them, in a war-torn, violence- saturated country, with their various scars, maimings, injuries, physical and emotional pains. These are real people, this is real suffering. Spend 5 minutes with those feelings.
Step 2: Unless you are emotionally stunted in some way, you will likely be feeling the need to try to alleviate and prevent this kind of pain from happening. If that’s the case, you can do several things:
Vote against anyone who supported or voted for the war that caused this pain and suffering — be they Republican or Democrat (and there were several who voted to give Bush war powers).
Don’t ever take our “leaders” (regardless of politcal party) words — especially when beating the drums of war — as gospel truth. They might be telling the truth, but it’s much more likely that they aren’t. You will have to figure that out for yourself, which leads me to the next point . . .
Get your news from less corporate-driven sources. I knew long before the Iraq war began that it was highly unlikely that Iraq had WMDs because I got my news from DemocracyNow!, the UK’s Guardian, Alternet.org and Commondreams.org. Most corporate news in this country has a conflict of interest with peace.
Study non-violence. Watch the film Ghandi. Read the part in the bible where Jesus tells his followers to “turn the other cheek” and “blessed be the peacemakers”.
Join in building a movement to end the violence - write letters to “leaders”, join in peace marches and anti-war protests. Visit you reps and senators in their offices.
Help make war very unpopular. Help your fellow citizens to evolve past this tribal tendendancy to support murder in the name of nationalism. Make sure the war-mongering leaders know that you know that why their wars are REALLY being waged.
December 29th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
Here’s what LL has to say to Sue over at ASP concerning OneUtah:
“More power to ya, babe. Sometimes, it’s just easier to walk away from idiocy than to keep banging your head against a wall.”
If that’s the case, I am left to wonder why LL continues to converse with ASP folks. LL should take a dose of her own advice - that migrane headache she constantly experiences would likely go away, fast!
December 29th, 2006 at 5:09 pm
I think what Jenni is trying to say is LOSE YOUR FEAR, get brave, and FIND YOUR HUMANITY!
December 29th, 2006 at 6:50 pm
waves of fear go bump in the night, waves of revulsion, sickening sights…
waves of fear… rriiiif
waves of fear… riiiif lou reed.
the nightmare has always been near our doorstep. Quit invitin it in.
April 19th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
Here in Chile we all see that kids are killed by US-UK forces, and the purpose is to mantain Saudi oil prices high, bosses of Bush family, and right-wing USers can be happy.
Finally, why US invaded Iraq? To make them free?