Cliff LyonOK - Ehren Watada Was Wrong. I Was Wrong
After thinking about Frank’s and Richard’s argument I realized I didn’t fully understand that when you join the US military, you surrender certain civilian rights.
Even when the civilian commander in chief fires high-level officers, Generals etc who disagree with him, you obey the new handpicked ones.
Even if the current commanders disagree with the President, you obey.
Even when it is discovered that atrocities committed by the US military were covered up you do not claim such as the reason for defecting.
Even when the US most respected institutions put the number of civilian war casualties at 20 times the official numbers, you must accept the gov’t numbers.
Even when the Generals, America’s most widely respected experts, most politicians, every living former president and Ford, the American people, the Iraqi people, serving troops, the entire world and the presidents own father, believe the war is wrong, you go fight.
Even when the regime against which the original resolution giving the president the authority to use force is gone, and it’s leader dead, you follow the commander in chief’s orders.
If you join the military, you follow all orders regardless of conscience. You cease being an American with liberties. You give up your right to think.
When you join the US military (by this logic) you are the president’s bitch.
My mistake.
Update: It has come to my attention that the ‘president’s bitch’ statement above has been repeated and interpreted on certain MilBlogs as a declarative statement rather than an hypothetical in the context of sarcasm. Hence the revision adding “(by this logic)”.
Obviously this post is sarcasm. In fact do not believe one completely surrenders the right to speak out when one joins the service. I do not believe ‘When you join the US military you are the president’s bitch.’ Such would be the case in an authoritarian regime.
I do believe that US service members have an obligation to refrain from casual and personal political expression as a condition of voluntary acceptance of ‘consideration’ (pay) under the terms of that service…except in the gravest of conditions. I believe those conditions have been met (as do many others such as Watada).
January 11th, 2007 at 6:39 pm
You do those things as a soldier, and someday, YOU, dutiful soldier, will have a party with me. Do not do a single thing against your Oath, or serve willingly those that have violated theirs, superior or not. Otherwise I will RSVP you to my party.
Neckties REQUIRED!
January 11th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
I’ve been listening to news and C-Span all day. I have never heard so many people say the president is “detached from reality.”
When do we say enough is enough. After we attack Iran and Syria? After we get our asses kicked all over the ME? After we drop nukes?
Maybe Bush really DOES want us to be wearing Burhqas.
Maybe my bible has an explanation.
January 11th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
While you lose civil rights in the military, replaced by the UCC, you do pick up some duties. The primary one is in the Oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. This precedes any obligation to the UCC and command if there is any conflict.
It will require you to THINK soldier.
If a soldier is not educated enough to understand this and serves on in an illegal cause, his extenuating condition, ignorance, will be weighed in at sentencing.
As for the knowing, if they have committed treason and have been convicted of such during time of war, well then they have a date with a coarse kind of thing, of 13 coils, not of flaxen curls, but of knots, and this I refer, will bring all to an end, your criminal toils.
January 11th, 2007 at 7:09 pm
Our soldiers are encouraged to think. However, the nature of war requires very compartmentalized thinking. Montesquieu said it: “a rational army would run away.” That’s the best I can explain it. The Army has a different culture from civilian life.
January 11th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
A “rational army”? What if we fire all the rational officers and let prosecute the others that run away.
What the FUCK does Montesquieu say about that?
Montesquieu wasn’t speaking about a civilian commanded army.
Richard, you can do better. If we lose you we’re fucked.
January 11th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Cliff, it’s the job of Congress to stop a runaway president. Army officers can’t do it. What do you want, a military coup?
January 11th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Richard,
I agree its the Congress’ job.
But I also believe American-hood should trump military culture. It used to.
Just last night, the senior editor of Military Times (on C=Span) said something like, “it’s no secret our today is highly conservative.”
It didn’t used to be.
The Founding Fathers contemplated this issue. (civilian commander). Except they were worried about revolution from within the military.
So Iraq as was Viet Nam is the opposite problem. And this time the military is volunteer.
…and this time the civilian commander is firing generals all over the place.
“Army officers can’t do it.” means we can’t depend on the Army Officers to be Americans first.
I fear your argument may verge on the infamous Nuremberg Defense.
Their solution was to make the commander in chief our civilian president.
January 11th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
Damn good point Cliff. As I recall, Officers revolted in the Revolutionary War against Washington. That George convinced them to keep going with the support of our colonial gov’t.
It sure ain’t like its used to be.
January 12th, 2007 at 7:31 am
Being “the president’s bitch” was never a problem until the stupid half of America elected this particular bozo and the chickenshit Congress to rubberstamp his agenda.
You get the government you deserve, and you get the Army you deserve.
Stop whining and figure out a way to educate that stupid half of America.
I know: let’s all get behind Hurricane Anne and elect him.
January 12th, 2007 at 10:11 am
Anyone wonder why there is the 2nd amendment?
I have been witnessing civilian politicos justifying democratic and republican dereliction of duty with regard to Iraq, and savaging one another in the process.
Now I have just read the writings of a sworn military officer(Frank) tell me that it is civilians job to remove a treasonous president, not the military.
So you follow the orders of criminals? Hey at some point you can’t be like children, if you have doubts about the legality of this presidency, and civilians can’t do anything, or impeach him, then we have entered dictatorship, and a military mans job at this point is CLEAR!!!
You either side with the traitor and win, no consequence, or lose and go down with him. You joined the military, this IS part of your job. Idiot soldiers that don’t understand the law, and Constitution need not APPLY!
Back to my opening point. With so much weakness of character displayed by civilian and military command, it is now obvious that our forefathers provided us with the right to bear arms, and that means whatever you NEED, to destroy such parties pathetic grip on so great nations leadership.
Looks like the public will have to do this job themselves. LOSERS!!
January 12th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
TBR, hold on a sec. (or a F.U.) I’m way behind on my tummy crunches, and you know, it’s kinda cold out, and alls I got in the way of arms is piece of rope, a bow-gun and some arrows. gimme a sec to catch up. Ah, shit, why don’t you just do it?
January 12th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
It’s already been established in past war crime trials that “following orders” is not a valid defense. That being the case, we need to rethink what rights those in the military do have when le/forced into an illegal war by a CIC who could possibly be charged as a war criminal himself.
January 12th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
Arm yourself, it’s the American thing to do.
Jenni you have the right to sit on your ass and do nothing and be court martialed.
What’s worse?, going to prison for your beliefs or killing people even though you know you are doing wrong. In WW2 Germans and Russians both were threatened with summary execution if they would not fight. Many were shot outright, many went on to kill,kill, kill, and survive as broken people. For me, I am pretty sure I would have rather lost my own life in a concentration camp than to be part of something I could not avoid which would make me a killer. Then again…after the first few lives taken it just gets easier for many. This is what war is.
Wouldn’t it be a whole lot easier Caveat if the dems would simply impeach this president?
January 12th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Cliff,
I have a question to ask, and not one to get into a screaming argument about. I simply am a bit offended by your remarks about our military. My question to you is, have you always had this animosity toward our military or did you simply write this piece out of being heated over a president you dislike and distrust?
When Clinton was president, did you feel the same way about our military then, or are your views toward our military dependant upon who should be in the White House. What do you think of our presence in Bosnia? I remember when Clinton announced us going there, he promised our troops would be home by Christmas of that very same year. But here it is, years later, and we still have troops in Bosnia.
I am not trying to pick an arguement with you. I am simply trying to figure out where you are coming from as to why you dislike our military. Is it just the military folks who are in Iraq, or is it the military folks in general? You have me a bit confused and a bit hurt that you feel this way about our military. I guess since my husband is in the Army, I take it a bit personal. My husband is a good, honest man and isn’t any of the things you are portraying our military to be.
Anyway, just thought I would leave a comment. Now, please, go easy on me when you reply!! LOL!
January 12th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Absofuckinglutely.
January 12th, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Sun Tzu would say it is the finest military mind that never fights. He keeps his enemies at bay every way he can before he commits to battle, he is not an adventurer. He does describe how to win if you are one though. We are currently breaking all the rules for success.
What I don’t like, are the people who like it, the war that is. We currently have a gung ho military( I figure this 6 year hitch might change that), and that is the most dangerous kind. It is linked to our president who is displaying psychological signs of megalomania. If you really want to serve your country, figure out how to do this job without exacerbating the problem. The inflammatory methods that we have used in Iraq have certainly not served the cause, if anyone really knows what that is.
I think Huntington is right on, we are working everyone up so we can have the excuse we needed in the first place to destroy the Muslims. Who benefits? You don’t have to think very hard.
February 10th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
Makes sense to me: Protect the Constitution first and foremost.
Stand by moral conscience: Refuse illegal orders
Love your country and fellow troops: protect them at all costs
even with a sacrifice that has nada to do with combat.
It always seems to be one person as a lightning rod.
I appreciated reading the letters of support from West Point Graduates.
The United States has the most educated Soldiers in the World.
Ehren Watada is part product of his military education.
February 10th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Do Salvia, leave this world behind for 10 minutes, and never see it the same way again, for the better. I am legal and available online. Don’t do me alone, have a sober “sitter”.
March 22nd, 2007 at 7:34 pm
serious reaction to zithromax…
news…