Cliff LyonPatriots or Traitors?
Flicking through the channels tonight on the idiot box, I caught the nuclear bomb explosion in Valencia, CA on some “hot†new FOX program called 24 (I think) but landed on a PBS program about John and Abigail Adams, Jefferson, and the beginning of the American Revolution.
And it occurred to me our embarrassingly patriotic Milblogger friends and those others who still support Bush, would have been traitors during the American revolution. They would have been “loyalist†as they were known at the time.
The choice would have been a simple as it is now. Go with the greatest military on earth (The British Crown) or the colonist?
Another thing our Bush patriots probably don’t know. Were it not for the French in Yorktown, the British would not have been brought to their knees.
Oh yeah, in the ultimate in self-serving hypocrisy, the President in the fictional FOX program is a black man.
January 22nd, 2007 at 8:49 pm
Cliff - the program you are referring to as a ““hot†new FOX program called 24″ is actually in its sixth season—or maybe seventh. And, this is the 2nd black president they have had. You need to get out more.
January 22nd, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Cliff,
As in the case of your observation that many milbloggers would have been considered “loyalists”, your insights are more than occasionally magnificent! A very good point. I think you’re probably right, and at the least volumes could be written and learned about this comparison! And I hope my fellow milbloggers don’t brand me a traitor for saying so. I suspect not all of them will…
January 22nd, 2007 at 11:27 pm
Ah Cliff, let’s call them correctly, TORIES! Before then, if it were not for French MONEY, and then their magnificent NAVY, that ran english blockades with ease, and brit ships?, sank ‘em too, thankfully,… Yorktown would have never have happened.
Interesting scene in Marie Antionette(current) where the Dauphin(Louis the 16th), authorizes expenditures on our behalf, that his advisors says are gonna HURT! Did it without much thought upon his advisors advice. Realpolitik and all. Louis lost his head in Frances own revolution, along with his wife, an ugly affair, and haven’t mentioned what became of their kids.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XVI_of_France he was reputedly, a retarded, sorry, not PC, Louis?(George?) Intellectually challenged?, Listened to NPR today.
As for 24, I created a bit of a stir when I told those at ASP that I couldn’t watch 24, because I have always considered Kiefer Sutherland a Quimby, and his macho act didn’t work for me.
It’s the chicken ass sucking part I rather thought of him, not the other.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Quimby
January 22nd, 2007 at 11:59 pm
Now I’m one of your henchmen Cliff.
These guys sadly have, and will believe anything… the litany.
Seal not you, we just disagreed, time will tell. Post over here. Pretty good run for poppet, huh? The insurgency is doing it all day. Wait til we’re out of there, leave, you’ll see.
# sealpatriot Says:
January 22nd, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Who is Glenn? Does that mean Gunther isn’t gonna be posting anymore? Man, I was hoping to get more spirited in are arguments!
# sealpatriot Says:
January 22nd, 2007 at 5:02 pm
Is Glenn in anyway tied to Cliff from OneUtah?
# CJ Says:
January 22nd, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Seal, Gunther will NOT be posting anymore. At least not as Gunther. He is one of Cliff’s henchmen and followers.
January 23rd, 2007 at 7:16 am
“24″ is the funniest comedy show on TV. If you don’t believe me, check out the Dave Barry Blog.
January 23rd, 2007 at 7:37 am
Don’t have any serious input on this topic…But 24 has got to be one of the worst shows on TV, along with The Unit.
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:04 am
No matter who were going with, this is the reality. The war could have paid for 700 elementary schools in State of what is increasingly a disunion.
http://www.flicklife.com/afcfc22149d77babee96/You_wont_believe_how_much_the_war_is_costing_us.html
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:05 am
in each state of this disunion, it is so boggling, I cannot type straight.
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:28 am
What shall we make of this disagreement between patriots? Cpl M wrote a top post not long ago in which he claimed the FOX show 24 to be the best show on TV.
Not that I’m paying close attention, but this rift stands out as the one and only areas of disagreement among the “patriots” over at ASP
Should we be concerned that this highbrow rift represents the beginning of the a breakdown of consensus?
Should we dimiss the opinion of Anthony from A Soldiers Mind in favor of Cpl M of A Soldiers Perspective? Or visa versa?
Will the real “Patriot” please stand up and weigh in here?
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:33 am
Gotta say that I have a new found respect for Anthony - I am actually beginning to appreciate his point of view - and, I must add, he makes the bretheren (and sisterhood) over at ASP look about as uninformed (tribal loyal??) as folks can possibly get. It’ll be a shame if ASP wins the milblog contest - especially if they win by fewer than the five separate votes I cast for ASP.
January 23rd, 2007 at 9:35 am
It certainly weighs heavily on which ones are Quimby lovers.
January 23rd, 2007 at 10:02 am
If Cloe could get me those damn vectors and schematics, I might figure out how to get through the perimeter at ASP. But there’s no time!
January 23rd, 2007 at 11:13 am
Richard,
Getting through the perimeter at ASP is not as hard as you might think - just set up a dummy name and start saying lots of Bush-lovin’ garbage and voila!, you’re in. It’s the tribal thing, for sure. I wonder if the boys over at ASP share their women, as women sharing is kinda tribal, too, ain’t it?
January 23rd, 2007 at 11:15 am
Could they be, perhaps, “Patriotic Traitors”?
January 23rd, 2007 at 11:20 am
If you have been banned repeatedly, you must use a new dummy e-mail, and operate from different ISP. Last time I got discovered it was due to my own carelessness, and being worn down by the sheer mindlessness of swimming in that sea. I’m done. Found out what I need to know.
January 23rd, 2007 at 11:28 am
When the ‘West Wing’ didn’t go repub, but instead, continued on its course, it became appearant that a new, more right wing show, was gonna be needed to satisfy all those wingtards, whose idea of a good time was watching terror and torture on T.V. ‘24′ hit the spot and even though, deep down inside Keefer is a damned hippy, he’s still raking in the dough with it. May he rot in a Hollywood style Gitmo.
January 23rd, 2007 at 11:46 am
With a name like Keefer is it likely that his dad Donald and Mom burned heavy? if he is a hippee, what a sell out, but that’s entertainment.
January 23rd, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Hey Head Up,
Go easy on the wife thing. These guys’ sense of humor goes from 60mph to zero in about a second when mess with the ‘fam’.
Add to that a chronic ‘reality’ deficiency and easy access to weapons, and you (or I, thanks to you) could find your self in the cross hairs of some trigger happy, high school drop out, mercenary lunatic from a base near you.
January 23rd, 2007 at 6:16 pm
24 IS the best show on tv if you are a member of the stupified goyim.
And yes Cliff, the mindless killers are the modern day Tories. Hope you don’t think it was a special relevation.
January 23rd, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Ahh yes, high school drop outs. Where did you do that research? Or are you just generalizing the military as high school drop outs?
January 24th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Wow! This is a crazy one!
Let’s see, the American presence in Iraq is like King George’s Red Coats during the Revolution. Why? Because we quarter soldiers in the homes of Iraqis? No, that’s not it. Because we tax them and give them no voice in their own government? No, that’s not it. Because we are plundering their natural resources? No, that’s not it.
Well let’s try it another way. If we are Tories/Loyalists/Redcoats, then the insurgents must be Rebels/Patriots. Because we slaughtered each other over religious differences during the Revolution? No, that can’t be it. Because we fought against Democracy to establish a religious theocracy. No, that can’t be it. Because when we fought the Redcoats we killed more colonists just to break England’s will? No, that’s not it.
Oh well, guess this is just too highbrown for me, what with all the “quimby”, “wife-swapping”, “high school drop-out”, “mindless killers”, “24 vs. West wing” talk.
January 24th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Ok.
Army of occupation, very simple, the rest of the cultural differences are the arab flavor of it Diane, though I’m sure if you asked an Indian what kind of savages our ancestors were, he might offer you a different opinion than the ones you hold for yourself.
Washington and the like had served Tory masters in suppressing Indians, in bloodthirsty campaigns against the French, and their Indian allies. Then as time wore on, we all know what happened to Indians. They met Jackson and many more conquerers, that ditched on england after risking their lives for the crown. They were pretty nuts to be sure, for their day.
Our own Civil War bespeaks on part of atrocity, from the treatment of prisoners, to Shermans’ march to the Sea, innocent blood spilled recklessly, and plunder taken, but that’s only our own history, that killed 500,000, so the Iraqis have a ways to go before they can equal such feats.
Many Patriot soldiers were summarily put to death upon surrender in battle, this ended in time, but the war started this way.
People were tarred and feathered, a grisly death if not tended to. Tory homes burned, livelihoods destroyed, you know, WAR.
I do excuse the events we currently see in Iraq, but… as is our own history a guide, war is a miserable, terrible thing, to be avoided at all costs if necessary.
Ah but what the heck, let’s follow the 24 script, it is after all what “they” are prepping us for.
Duck and cover everyone.
January 24th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
shoot…I do not excuse the events
January 24th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/week/020923.htm
January 25th, 2007 at 6:27 am
Mr. Suitcase Nuke. Very interesting article, indeed. Two things, just to add to the paranoid perspective.
The U.S., too, had / has suitcase nukes.
The anthrax attack of 2001 was of our own making.
January 25th, 2007 at 7:23 am
OK Gunther, I’ll agree war is a miserable, terrible thing”. You have stated that the Americans are a brutal people before and after the Revolution. But I don’t see how our current actions are brutal. Quite the opposite. There have been some isolated incidents which have been dealt with. Otherwise, the actions in Iraq have been conducted as humanely as possible. I’m still of the opinion that anyone who finds similarity between the actions of the Crown or the Redcoats during the Revolution and the Bush Administrian and our military is full of hot air. And it is beyond ridiculous to liken Adams and Washington to Sadr and the insurgents.
January 25th, 2007 at 8:11 am
As humanely as possible? The support and billions we gave to saddam when he was our favorite, what was that, United Way charity? Perhaps you would like to live there(Iraq) without the benefit of our taxpayer largesse. Spend a year and get back to me.
What do you have to say about the truth of American brutality? Too bad you do not seemingly know much about American history. Address the civil war, and put it into the context of Iraq and you will discover that the scale of brutality gives the arabs every right to look upon us with derision.
Address the ethnic, racial cleansing of Washington, and many others with regard to the Indians, our founding fathers did this for the crown at the time they were loyal, a great many treacheries were committed upon the Indians of the time, that could only be described as genocide.
Then there is the reality of this war, with the Red Cross estimating 650, 000 total dead from bombings sanctions and disease I know for sure if your ilk came for me, I would be laying for you with all I had.
Washington and Adams were both slave holders.
Diane you are living in a fantasy that is getting people killed. Ask Nathan Hale or any other of our founding fathers what the crown thought of them. They were the lowest form of life to the king. Simple traitors, and “insurgents”, to be hanged summarily, or interminably imprisoned after a “star chamber” trial, should the crown attach their hands upon you. Sounds like a gitmo situation to me.
Stop watching TV. We know where the hot air comes from.
January 25th, 2007 at 8:51 am
My bombs better’n than your bomb, my bombs better than yours, my bombs better, with enriched plu-ton-ium, yours is just fission pan-demon-ium, my bombs better’n yours…
*None of these bombs work after 6 months without extremely sophisticated maintenance. They are the rubiks cube of explosive devices.
January 25th, 2007 at 9:44 am
It is no longer possible to be a dual passport rat in Russia anymore. the D-con is being set out.
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/491
January 25th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Mr / Miss Nuke of manycolors. Allow me to clairify my point. The U.S. has a history of utilizing our weaponry on our own citizens(however fuzzy the evidence is). O.K. so far? That finding an accounting for U.S. suitcase Nukes that have been lost, stolen, or are otherwise missing, means that it is not only the Rusky attache’ devices that we need to be concerned about. Period.
January 25th, 2007 at 10:43 pm
Perhaps, Dear Gunther, you should be the one picking up the book. Adams was not a slave owner. May I recommend “John Adams” by David McCullough?
http://www.amazon.com/John-Adams-David-McCullough/dp/0684813637/sr=1-2/qid=1169789232/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-1995248-5946458?ie=UTF8&s=books
Washington inherited his slaves through his wife’s first husband and freed them all in his will, while providing that they could all live on his estates as long as they needed/wanted to. Again, if I might recommend, “The Unexpected George Washington: His Private Life” by Harlow Unger.
http://www.amazon.com/Unexpected-George-Washington-Private-Life/dp/0471744964/sr=1-4/qid=1169789330/ref=sr_1_4/002-1995248-5946458?ie=UTF8&s=books
Of course it’s easy to argue that I must watch too much TV since I deign to disagree. Of course I must be semi-literate. Of course I must live in a dream world.
I stand by my statement that this war is being fought in as humane a way as is possible. We could be far more brutal. You can’t argue that point. So why are we not rolling out the “killing machine” we are so often accused of being? Because people who make these decisions have decided to keep collateral damage to the absolute minimum possible. No government in history has ever put so much stock in the value of the lives of others, innocents and enemy alike.
January 26th, 2007 at 5:58 am
B.S.
January 26th, 2007 at 7:17 am
Adams bought a house slave her freedom, as far as I can read he didn’t keep her from freedom her, she lived in his house and served him there, where else should she go? Happy to stay. Now Abigails’ parents owned slaves. It is with much trouble that Adams had to keep to himself on this issue during the Revolution, lest he alienate the Southern planters.
The situation is not much written about in the “slaveless” north.
He did, however, engage in indentured servitude, slavery by modern standards. Those people were white. Adams was a good master, and man or woman under his control never felt the whip. The rules guiding this form of slavery were basically made up as the process developed. http://eh.net/Clio/Publications/indentured.shtml
The Presidents House, in Philadelphia(before the White House)had slaves on the premises, 9, in total the Father of our Nation owned 103. Adams had servants, I am researching their status as indentured, though this does not change the reality in Adams personal life.
Back to the Adams’ house servant. As far as the law was concerned he had purchased her, and he granted her freedom. I believe she stayed with the family in service, she was viewed as his slave by those not enamored of Adams, and the situation was a source of embarrassment, as slaves were in his family through his wifes’ parents. Complex issue of the day slavery and indenture. Many hardcore New Englanders did not differentiate between southern slavery and indenture. Indenture being the slavery they knew alone best. It was all slavery to them.
Sure(Washington) everyone sets them free after the war and Declaration, you would look pretty stupid if you didn’t, or at least a hypocrite . I guess that condemns most of the South. Took New Englanders and the likes of John Brown to really make the Southern mind see. About 90 years. In the end kinda like we’re doing now in Iraq. We had to destroy the South to save it. The mentality has been around at lot longer than Vietnam.
Go visit Iraq and look around, it’s brutal, a 2000 bomb doesn’t have much any other way. Place is wrecked, don’t kid yourself. I guess that there are reputed to be 650,000 dead Iraqis over the years at our hand and sanction indicates that we are not very good at “trying” to keep destruction and mayhem at a minimum. If your neighborhood looked like theirs, you might think different.
January 26th, 2007 at 7:34 am
Yes, we care so much, is this why Iraq is “stone age” now. It is why Depleted Uranium is causing insane cancer rates, and genetic abnormalities? Know any Gulf War soldiers with babies that have genetic defects? I do. You will to I’m sure. We are very s-caring.
It was with great gentleness that 2000 lbs bomb fluttered onto the neighborhood, and blossomed into a beautiful starburst, that unfortunately the dead and dismembered could not see, as their lifeless ragdoll bodies flew through the air, with the greatest of ease…the “terrorist” in the basement was vanquished
Why not roll out the killing machine? So exactly what is it you call what we have over there now, the cop car? Paddy wagon? Kindler, gentler military. Gimme a break. What about banned cluster munitions, how are those, “careful” they lay around until you accidently step on one, or worse a kid picks it up.
Hoo-ahh so proud!