“My brother is and was a HERO”
There are so many tragic stories about the occupation of Iraq, involving Iraqis and Americans as well as people of other nationalities. I’m mentioning this one because of the Utah connection and the need to look at the role of private contractors in a war zone. KSL-TV has covered this because Dan Laguna, a pilot from Utah, lost his brother and four other Blackwater Aviation employees two days ago in Baghdad. From Dan’s letter to IraqSlogger:
First of all my brother is and was a HERO. All he ever wanted to do from the time I can remember as a child, was he wanted to fly. He became one of the most professional pilots you could have ever known. I recruited my brother to join us with Blackwater Aviation. We get a lot of resumes but only a few have the qualifications to join us. This is one of the most demanding jobs in Iraq. The military fly’s some every day but we in Blackwater Aviation are up flying in the RED zone every day all day…. We are the QRF (Quick Reaction Force) for just about everyone. The military takes too long to respond because of the approval they have to get all the way up the chain of command. I am the only one that makes the decision to go or not and we always go when someone is in harms way.
Blackwater USA is a private-enterprise security organization founded in 1997 and headquartered in North Carolina. Headed by former U.S. Navy SEALs, it was founded to take advantage of business opportunities created by the downsizing of the US military. Blackwater’s private contractors (no one seems to use the term mercenaries anymore) are among an estimated 25,000 armed civilians that augment the US ground presence in Iraq. These freelance soldiers are operating mostly according to their own rules, sometimes doing jobs that normally would be assigned to the overextended special operations forces.
Most people heard of Blackwater for the first time when insurgents ambushed and killed four of its employees who were escorting a truck convoy through Fallujah on March 31, 2004. This incident triggered a chain of events that led to the first and second battles of Fallujah, which caused massive damage and displaced most of the 300,000 residents. An estimated 10,000 of the roughly 50,000 buildings in the city were destroyed.
According to Robert Pelton on IraqSlogger, one of Blackwater’s missions is to guard State Department officials. They have a small fleet of Boeing MD series “Little Bird” helicopters that were acquired originally for Paul Bremer’s personal security detail (PSD).
The Blackwater Little Birds are a familar sight above the skies of Baghdad. The tear drop shaped black helicopters fly erratic patterns to avoid ground fire as they swoop and twirl around PSD moves below… [they are] unarmed but carry two pilots and two door gunners each. The two door gunners hang out of the rear doors of the helo with straps and use their SAWs (Squad Automatic Weapons) to provide suppressing fire… There have been numerous hits by ground fire (including an AK bullet that went right through one pilot’s ankle and missed the bones).
The recent shoot-down took place when a Blackwater PSD was escorting a State Department official to a ministry meeting in the Fadhi district of Baghdad. The convoy began to take small arms fire. They called for backup and the Blackwater quick reaction force responded from the Green Zone.
What happened next, from KSL-TV based on first-hand information in an e-mail from Dan Laguna (emphasis added):
He sent out two helicopters, which immediately received automatic fire–a door gunner was shot in the head. Those helicopters retreated while Dan and Art Laguna got their crews together and took off. “When we arrived,” he writes, “we started to receive heavy volumes of automatic fire from all around. My brother was my wing man.. they were taking rounds. By the time I got turned around to see him he was gone. As I continued to look for his helicopter we also got shot down.”
Dan Laguna landed his helicopter in a small court yard. His crew was ok. He flew his damaged helicopter back to the green zone. After quick repairs, he headed back to search for his brother with the help of the military.
He found his brother’s helicopter in a small alley. Two bodies had been dragged into the street. The military reports that all five [sic] crew members had been shot execution-style in the back of the head.
Dan ID’d his brother and crew and realized he’d have to make a very difficult call to his brother’s wife and let her know he did not suffer.
He concludes, “I know we are doing the right thing in helping the Iraqi people and wish everyone could understand that.”
According to IraqSlogger, the insurgent group Ansar al Sunna has claimed responsibility for shooting down the Little Bird. Photos of Arthur Laguna’s dog tags and a cell phone video of the crash site were posted on an Ansar al Sunna website.
UPDATE: The LA Times offers an editorial titled Our mercenaries in Iraq. Their view is that Blackwater USA and the nation-building Civilian Reserve Corps proposed by President Bush in his State of the Union address are a disturbing example of the military-industrial complex in action.
January 25th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
John of Argghhh is coming around to the consensus position (and linked to us) on on private contractors.
January 25th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
Richard, What did you think of the video on IragSlogger?
It looks like the troops are facilitating the cleansing and proving morgue delivery services.
January 25th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Just for anyone who didn’t follow Cliff’s link, the video has nothing to do with Blackwater or mercenaries.
Well, I’m at work and it’s a nine minute video– can’t watch it. I wonder if CNN will put this up as breaking news today?
Two observations: (1) It was the Iraqis engaged in prisoner abuse (this time) and the story notes that the US Army platoon sergeant has been relieved of duty for not intervening (or, possibly, for letting the video get out?). (2) This might be one small piece of evidence that makes it seem like our forces are backing the Shias in the civil war.
January 25th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
US soldiers sitting in the Humvee with the guy filming could be heard chuckling while Iraq (Shia) troops kick the crap out of Sunnis.
Somebody from the US side tries to get them to stop, and another US guy comes in over the radio and says, “don’t be so sensitive.”
This is the horror of war, and we can’t stop it. It’s not Europe in 1945.
I believe that video speaks to why we should leave. Iraqis can and will sort out their problems, as they always have, without us.
January 25th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Cliff, when I was in the Army there was unanimous agreement that we weren’t going to do Vietnam or counterinsurgency ever again. Our senior leaders were Vietnam veterans and they had had enough. Now I’m reading Fiasco by Thomas Ricks. He chronicles the growing horror of Army generals such as General Shinseki when they realized Bush was taking us back to essentially the same cesspool when they had spent their entire careers rebuilding the Army after Vietnam.
January 25th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
Richard,
I was amazed to learn you have a personal contact at Blackwater USA. Wow! What a connection. Blackwater is indeed a key private contractor of the Brave New Military Industrial Complex. We now live in a world of Corporate Fascism, when even our military and police and paramilitary mercenaries, hired guns, like the Prussians of the 18th and 19th centuries.
With all do respect to Navy Seals, Sailors and Marines who may earn their wages plying their trade with the company, that is, the workers. Now, I have a serious question for you to pass along to your friend.
Who really blew up the Holy Mosque in Najaf and what is your evidence for such conclusion?
August 29, 2003, a car bomb exploded outside the mosque just as the main Friday prayers were ending. Somewhere between 85 to 125 people were killed, including the influential Ayatollah Sayed Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim, the Shia leader of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq. The blast is thought to be the work of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
And who blew up the Golden laden dome of the Al-Askari Mosque in Sammara and what is your evidence to support the claim?
On February 22, 2006, at 6:55 a.m. local time (0355 UTC) explosions occurred at the mosque, effectively destroying its golden dome and severely damaging the mosque. Several men, one wearing a military uniform, had earlier entered the mosque, tied up the guards there and set explosives, resulting in the blast. Two bombs were set off[7][8] by five[9] to seven[10] men dressed as personnel of the Iraqi Special forces[11] who entered the shrine during the morning.[12]
If you could pass these questions along to your friend and get back to me if he has any response. Was civil war the objective of George W. Bush’s mission? Was Blackwater an agent provacateur for Bush and Co.?
If so, I must say fellas, Mission Accomplished!
January 25th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
Nate– as Will Rogers used to say, all I know is what I read in the papers (or blogs, he would say now). You seem to be implying something, and if you have information don’t be shy!
January 26th, 2007 at 11:11 am
His brother was a merc in an illegal war. Nobody but family thinks of heroism, or sheds a tear.
Who knows what black ops the black hearted, blackwater “employees” committed?
February 8th, 2007 at 8:06 am
[...] Part of the answer came in yesterday’s hearing before the House Government Reform Committee, chaired by Rep. Henry Waxman. Despite extensive stonewalling by the Department of Defense and defense contractors, Waxman seems to be making some progress exposing years of war profiteering. One of his targets is Blackwater USA, a private security company founded and owned by reclusive billionaire Erik Prince, a former Navy SEAL with Republican connections. The secretive security firm made headlines when four Blackwater employees were ambushed and gruesomely killed in Fallujah in March 2004, causing a crisis that led to two major battles. Last month, two Blackwater helicopters were shot down over Baghdad and five employees died. [...]
February 17th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Glenn, what have you ever risked for your fellow countrymen. You are sitting on the sidelines. I served with Art while in the CA Guard stationed in Iraq. This man was a fearless military pilot who selflessly gave to the US Army for over 20 years. That fact does not diminish because he signed on with Blackwater. Who in the hell are you? What in the hell have you given? I am interested what you have contributed to the state of this perfect union besides excersizing the right of free speech given to you by a strong US military presence worldwide. Kiss my ass Glenn.
February 17th, 2007 at 7:31 pm
Shark: a dumb, dangerous beast, lives by instinct, though well adapted to life in the murky, dusky depths which it must plumb as it hunts, and eats garbage to survive.
The shark has been judged to have the equivalent intelligence of a RAT! Very fitting.
February 17th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
In a former life I served as a commercial fisherman, and have culled many a shark.
I swore the Oath of Citizenship, which obligates me to uphold and defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. It also compels me to be under the direction of civil of military officers in time of need, and request.
As for what you think of your service and its worth, or its legality. Keep it to yourself.
You volunteered and serve under civilian command, so now shut the hell up, and assume the position you CHOSE in life. Lest we court martial you for your mouth, and insubordination to the Oath YOU swore to the Constitution, and of course, your Military Code of Conduct Oath.
You will cease and desist, and unless you are now a civilian SHUT UP!!!
February 17th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
It also compels me to be under the direction of civil and military officers, in time of need, and request.
Long day. DISMISSED!
February 17th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Clever dialogue to detract from the question at hand. WHAT HAVE YOU SACRAFICED FOR YOUR COUNTRY! Freedom is not free. Put up or shut up.
February 17th, 2007 at 9:14 pm
You are showing yourself as a loon and the crackpot we all thought you were. Art wouldn’t waste his time and neither will I.
February 17th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Hey, we have paid your salaries, you think you are so great? What if you are nothing but a warmonger?What if what you think is sacrifice is just plain self serving evil? Reflect, what you have done and its worth will be decided by your Maker. Not me. Judge away, and be judged.
Are you not under civilian direction? Don’t we tell you when to piss, and where to go?
As Kissinger said, military people are animals to be directed as such. He has been running most of the foreign poliyou go and die for. He said it I didn’t.
Note I called you no names, until war-monger, you bring the lack of credibility to your argument by starting it, the sign of a lost argument, ask anyone who debates. you would called out for your last statements, which are not points but insults.
Guess they do not teach this at boot camp.
I don’t expect a response, justify being a merc in war that has been declared illegal by the very Constitution you are sworn to serve. Your time is running out. Game soon to be over.
February 17th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
foreign policy you fight and die for…
February 17th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
I am unconcerned what you think of me, though you are clearly insubordinate to your civilian masters.
Time will tell, time will tell…BTW what kind of shark are you? A nurse shark? A dogfish? Perhaps a dusky….or perhaps a whale shark, with the Whoppers that you believe.
February 17th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
What the Odious One said; I might disagree with Henry, though he and his ilk are the people that have been sending you military people to your deaths and maimings for decades.
[paragraph]
In Haig’s presence, Kissinger referred pointedly to military men as “dumb, stupid animals to be used” as pawns for foreign policy. Kissinger often took up a post outside the doorway to Haig’s office and dressed him down in front of the secretaries for alleged acts of incompetence with which Haig was not even remotely involved. Once when the Air Force was authorized to resume bombing of North Vietnam, the planes did not fly on certain days because of bad weather. Kissinger assailed Haig. He complained bitterly that the generals had been screamin for the limits to be taken off but that now their pilots were afraid to go up in a little fog. The country needed generals who could win battles, Kissinger said, not good briefers like Haig.
[paragraph]
On another occasion, when Haig was leaving for a trip to Cambodia to meet with Premier Lon Nol, Kissinger escorted him to a staff car, where reporters and a retinue of aides waited. As Haig bent to get into the automobile, Kissinger stopped him and began polishing the single star on his shoulder. “Al, if you’re a good boy, I’ll get you another one,” he said.
====================
SOURCE:
Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein
The Final Days
second Touchstone paperback edition (1994)
Chapter 14, pp. 194-195
February 18th, 2007 at 10:17 am
It is true that an elected civillian president is the commander and chief of our military and that office shapes foriegn policy sometimes by the threat of or use of military force. Our government for the people and by the people relies on people who will serve in it and for it selflessly giving of their time and lives, whether it be military or in civillian office. We value freedom of speech, religion and many other rights the constitution has set for each citizen. While I am usually very liberal in my opinions Shark has it right this time. In order for our country to function in its participatory style of government citizens have to give. If you dont participate by serving in some capacity; or you come to this country and enjoy the freedoms that were paid for by our forefathers you should be nothing but grateful to them and this system. You dont have to support a percieved illegal war , but vote or run in a political race against the president. Some people are givers and others just take from this country and soak it all in never realizing all the while who paid the price for thier citizenship. War is hell and becomes very cloudy. All war can be theorhetically immoral. Put yourself in the shoes of the person who has to fight them. Put yourself in the shoes of the civillian leader who has to order our troops to fight. sitting by and throwing stones at both of them does not contribute in anyway to this country. You call them mercs but I havent yet seen you write down what you have done for the country. Until you are ready to put something on the line I think, and probably most will think you may be one of millions of unappreciative freeloaders. paying taxes alone is just going along with the current system. its what everyones duty is. Those military dogs paid for your right to call them that with their blood. show some respect to our men and women who risk and sacrafice. Disagree on the idealism of it but on the whole dont throw stones. If you really have a problem with how this country is set up or what we are doing then you are fine to move to another one. Really, that would be the best way to protest. I dont think you will because this is the greatest country in the world. We have our problems but if you think there is one greater then move there and write us from there to let us know.
February 18th, 2007 at 10:54 am
It’s only when I put myself in the position of the civilian ‘leadership’, who feel the need to send our best and brightest over ‘there’ to fight, that I feel like a psychopathic, clueless suck-up to the industrialized corporated war machine. Though I suspect they’re one and the same. When I step back, I see the costs in bodies and treasure, shot to hell and ask only for sanity and peace.
February 19th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
caveat, you would be writing this blog in german or japanese if the war machine and the “leadership” didnt take action in ww2. This war may be questionable, but what is worth fighting for or are you a die hard peace nik? I like rainbows and puppydogs also but get a reality check you sound like your writing a poem. Are there any lessons that the entire country can sum up from sept 11, 2001. Or will we forever be divided. The last congress voted for this war and once it kicked off it cannot just be stopped. Who has the answer cause thats the million dollar question. Anyone?
February 19th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
3000 people died on Sept 11th, terrible to be sure.
Out on the Steppes of Russia, WWII.
I watched German film footage of an infantry assault on a German position. There 6 Germans and a 2 1/2 ton truck. It was loaded with ammo. The crew had a mobile 20mm cannon, high speed. 3 men ran with PURPOSE, and brought out multiple barrels for the gun. 2 men manned the weapon, one man, the commander, observed the infantry assault through high powered binoculars.
The 3 men, after laying the barrels out, and a keg of water, ran like mad and carried the 20mm ammunition like their life depended on it. It did.
The Russians were on foot, and armed with Makarovs and Federov. 7.62 mm rifles, some automatic. They shot rounds at 11oo and 1900 ft per second. Good rifle, but not very powerful. The 20mm mobile was high powered, it hurled death at 7000 ft. per second.
The assault ensued, comprised of some 4500 men. The 20mm commander clearly pensive, held his crew in check, until he liked the range. Then he commanded the crew to open fire. The carnage in the infantry ranks was unbelievable, as the 20mm, shredded them up. The barrels were swapped, the old one thrown in a pan of water, the crew fed the monster, and it ratcheted up again, until the barrel got hot, and then they swapped it out, again, again, and again, and again. The 20mm raped the Russians. After about 3000 were dead, they had managed to get close to the crew, truck and weapon, you could see the gun commander barking orders, as the Russians were in range, and potshots were getting dangerously close. The grass tufting up, as the riflemen tried to kill, their killers.
In one moment the gun commander gave an order. The entire operation was inhaled into the truck by men CLEARLY in fear for their lives. The driver fired up, and I believe the truck was idling through the whole event. It was silent film. The truck raced directly away from the position, at high speed and made for the next Steppe, down the gully, and up to its crest, some 2 miles away. The gun came out of the truck, the process was repeated. This went on for months, until the Germans depleted, were DEFEATED!!
February 19th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
We pay, and the choice to join the volunteer army was ENTIRELY your own personal choice. That you are in the shit now, and expect everyone to join in something we do not agree with, and brought upon us by lying reasoning, is NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY!!
We will end it perhaps, but you cannot expect that decisions made in the manner they have been made by this administration and your own personal choices obligates us to support you. If you don’t like what is happening put down your weapons and face the consequences, if you do like stay, and do what it is you think is right.
However for my part, we have paid for your salaries and your gear for this lying debacle, AND ARE STILL PAYING IN DISAGREEMENT and YOU ARE NOW ON YOUR OWN FROM THIS AMERICAN!!
February 19th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
republog, There’s a big difference between the present crew and the leadership during WWII. Where are you writing from? Iraq? Why not?
This war certainly is questionable, lies and retooling an economy away form important endeavors to the destructive work of the war machine and those who profit from it, is not worth the energy and talents of our best and brightest.
After three years in the Army, two of which w / the Special Forces (’66 > ‘69), I’m entitled to a change of heart and mind when it comes to how high my Comander in Cheif wants me to jump, where and when. You see he (or she) has to be someone I trust. I do not trust the present admin.
The last congress, ruled by your kind, did perpetuate this travesty, and it won’t be stopped by the likes of you, who prop it up despite its appearant wrongness. You either like or are profiting from it. Thanks, asshole.
You like killing puppies?
Poetry? try it some time snatcho-man.
…September 11, 2001? the presnit and his p-nak co-conspirators ought to have taken thier intel chiefs fiery-haired warnings a tad more seriously? Maybe? But that brush did need cutting.
Sometimes I wonder if reuniting w / crazed folks who’ll gladly sacrifice other peoples children and heritage is something I could get comfortable with, constitutionally, that is. Your million dollar question could have been picked up several hundred times in the time it took me to write this post, if the $ weren’t being squandered on needless war right now. There’ll be a reality check in your near future, republog.
February 19th, 2007 at 10:00 pm
We are not obligated to serve until drafted by the US Federal government, for civilian or miltary duties when our nation calls on us. What YOU have chosen to do is your BEER!! WE pay, that is all that is required of us, if you want to do this thing for whatever reason, you can, but have NO right to tell us civilians, what we NEED to do. Keep it the hell to yourself.
Freeloaders. Most people joined up for the benes, and a free ride, for health care, schooling and a multiplicity of reasons, not excepting Patriots, glad you do it, I guess, IF the cause is just. In my opinion and those of many others IT ISN’T. Sorry if you do not like it. That is not my problem. I have volunteered myself for several causes, political and environmental. The self righteousness here STINKS to high heaven.
Anyway, were done with this WAR. I volunteer my time on constant basis, everyday, to ensure that no more people, than have already been killed, or have been maimed, end up in this unfortunate state. You have your sacrifice, I have mine, and I am as serious about mine, as you are about yours. See you on the battlefield.
February 19th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
Caveat. I was a commercial fisherman as a career, I guarantee I have ended more lives with my bare hands, than most of these people put together. That description of the film, it’s real. The gun crew men? When they signed up they were just like these people.
One of their buddies is dead, how else are they going to feel about he lives they have chosen, the decisions they have made? Cognitive consonance.
By the time it was over, the Germans swore to each other, to try to keep each other alive, or die trying, many of them died. All in the end ran for their lives. I’m German, this is why I don’t support war. You can be mistaken in your intentions, and then have to live out those terrible decisions.
Good night, and God Bless.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:32 am
liblogr,
Hint. When youre trying to pose as a liberal, don’t do the “love it or leave it” thing.
Its dead giveaway.
February 20th, 2007 at 6:22 am
Glenn, I know that killing fish and wars can be bloody and cruel, but, knocking poetry is the last straw. We’re all buddies, some people just don’t see that. Nutty times, these.
February 20th, 2007 at 8:20 am
I understand these messages. Neither of you like the killing thats going on and I got the change of heart thing. I can respect that from someone who has given. I have served as well. I have not however heard the answer or is it live and let live.
February 20th, 2007 at 8:43 am
Well Caveat I ‘aint flinchin.
That gun crew, real, My Uncle, killed 2 weeks before the end of the War, in his BF ME-109 Messerschmidt.
He shot down more people than any Allied pilot by a factor of two, and he was good, but nothing like others. Eric Hartmann, who commanded the New Luftwaffe after the War, had 352 confirmed camera kills.
Hans Ulrich Rudel, a vehement nazi until his death, and he lived to be an old bastard, had 600 confirmed camera kills of Soviet tanks he blew to hell with his Stuka. He was shot down 6 times I believe, lived, lost a leg, and went on. 600, BY HIMSELF!!! Think you are bad?, bad, bad was Hansi, 5 ft, 4 inches tall.
If you want to kill, and fight, your number gets advanced pretty quickly, and there will be MOFOS like Rudel, to meet you. Be vigilant, be peaceful.,..Be vigilant, be peaceful…..Be vigilant, be peaceful
February 20th, 2007 at 9:33 am
Shark, (liblogr, republog),
We certainly appreciate your input here. I hope we can elevate your discussion beyond the week equivocation with WWII and 9/11 and Iraq.
Iraq never attacked us, never planned to and couldn’t if they wanted to.
All desperate attempts to grapple with the real problem which as you point out is, “Put yourself in the shoes of the person who has to fight them.”
Indeed, this is very important. I think Franks says it best.
He says, “For anyone who has family or close friends serving, and especially for those serving in Iraq right now, to think about the political aspect of this could be extremely depressing.”
and…
And we have the perfect comparison because of the war going on simultaneously in Afghanistan. I don’t think you’ve heard anyone suggest they come home.
But to say you must have served to criticize war is sadly devoid of logic, pure emotion, but if you must, read Frank’s entire comment. He speaks for me. May I amplify HIS voice since I never served and never will?
February 20th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
If you think you can’t handle being in Iraq, put down your weapon, and turn yourself in.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Weak equivocation Cliff? study history, that is my purpose in the posts. People in this country that serve think they hit a home run when instead they were born on 3rd base. We don’t not know what people have put up with, nor does anyone apparently care. This is the fundamental problem. It is pretty much America is always right and we are the greatest. Whatever.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Cliff and Glenn, Your positions are something I am appreciative of, and despite the fact that we have all gone over this subject a number of times I wan to address again our guests question. Given that it’s already on, and that the momentum is there, How do we turn it off? Looking at it from an ecconomic angle I think we’d all agree that the money being spent on this war would be better spent education, the envoronment, eradicating poverty, rebuilding war-torn places and re-educating scarred worriors, Fish farms, etc. Lots and lots of projects that would make life for everyone better and there’d still be tons of money left over. Wars are just so consumptive. It’s sad.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Oops, I sent before polishing, sorry.
My point? Instead of cutting all of the existing programs that help people and the planet, we should cut the budget for wars of choice. Alot! Redirect those funds toward Humane and constructive projects, and hold fast to that even in the face of crazy commanders-in-chief.
We also need to alter our education system so that it’s not so loaded with tracks that lead toward wars. This is a big challenge but this mindlessness can no longer be fomented, especially when the resulting wars are so dangerous.
Calling, writing, and in any other way imagineable, reaching our reps and fellow citizens to rise with the message that our tax dollars should be spent differently even if a few corrupt corporate operations will suffer. How hard can comming up with an answer be? It’s really all we’ve been talking about for the past forever. Out of the way if you can’t lend a hand.
February 20th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
I’m considering renouncing and moving.
February 20th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
you have said something i agree with. be involved with your local rep to congress if you desire change.
February 20th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
Glen,
Naturally you can find parallels with any war and anything for that matter, but equivocation as it involves world domination as a justification for being in Iraq is a bit over the top don’t you think?
February 20th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
Cliff; the Eastern front has no equals, anywhere, maybe the Carthaginians under Hannibal, wiping Romans out consistently in Italy, in the 2nd Punic War. The Karkov offensive, with it’s technology, and its scale, was truly the most monstrous thing to EVER to have occurred in human history. The Russians won. FEAR THEM! Or at least respect them. Currently we are led by people who do neither. At our own peril.
I make the historical point, because it is somewhat wasted history on Americans. My intent is, to SHOW what people are capable of when you push them too far.
All those German numbers of “success” (like body counts in Vietnam) ultimately still led to their destruction, the Wehrmacht basically being unequaled in it’s ability and power at the beginning. Yet completely devastated at it’s end. Took six years. 50 million lives. Mess with the Bull, Get the Horn.
When I look at what path we currently follow, and the jingoism associated with it, I know for certain that our adversaries are making plans, that this administration, and democrats, are too stupid to realize. The weapons don’t matter anymore than they did in Russia, as SunTzu would say, we have cornered the desperate, and psychic barriers when breached, lead to results that are unexpected and unpredictable. Always leave your enemy an out. Or he may well DESTROY YOU IN DESPERATION!
We are these peoples backyards now, running amok, our hubris beyond comprehension to me, given what I know of war history. The photos don’t lie, the reality crystal clear. Iraq is just the beginning if these idiot sociopaths are permitted to continue. Much more will be required if we are to stop it.
pelosi? The current crop of spineless losers that populate Congress. C’mon, it is beyond PATHETIC, as our troops and Iraq take it in the teeth. And FOR WHAT? Some fantasy of fear? The world has judged all of us, and found us LACKING, and is making plans… as anyone would…, if a madman ran amok through the neighborhood, with a gun in his hand, shooting at people.
We are in TROUBLE!!
February 22nd, 2007 at 6:14 pm
I have been considering your comments. I still have a problem with the lack of substance in your responses. of course we could spend the war money domestically, but that is not the question. The President did not take us into the war by himself nonetheless he is still fully responsible and besides most politicians are good at shifting blame and outright lying like most now who are running for president and in running congress. I see no winning way out of the war. Domestically, if you are going to talk smack though you should have a better plan.
February 22nd, 2007 at 7:21 pm
Republog,
Was there a point to your post?
I got:
“lack of substance”
“could have”
[President not responsible but responsible]
“Most politicians”
And what does this mean, “Domestically, if you are going to talk smack though you should have a better plan.”
I can’t tell if you are apologizing for someone, or retreating from a position.
Pls advise.
February 22nd, 2007 at 7:53 pm
i am calling you out on your shitty responses. apparently you like to throw stones but have never actually served your community, your state or your country but by god you pay taxes. you apparently are affected enough to think that you actually have a realistic opinion but have never actually gotten involved. you probably dont even vote. i am saying put YOUR time in and get involved see what the real issues are then try and fix them from your perspective and opinion. you have a shitty opinion and no answers but want to throw stones
February 22nd, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Republog,
You talking to me?
February 22nd, 2007 at 8:09 pm
I love it how these GI Jack Asses think serving in the military somehow males their opinion superior to everyone else’s.
I think the saying is “be all you can be”, not join the Army a become smarter than everyone else.
People like Republog are an embarrassment to our troops.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:08 pm
Clliff, I do believe mr. Republog might just be addressing Moi. Substantial words, words words are not my strong point, or my point at all. Reptileblog, wants links n shit. I think Mimi nails it.
Though I’d be interested in one or two of those ‘real issues’ and thier solutions, Maybe Mr. R-blog would care to amplify?
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Mimi…”GI Jackasses”? HOW DARE YOU!!!! This makes my blood boil! You are clearly a very ignorant person! (to put it politely.) How many GI’s do you personally know? If you knew anything about our history, you’d be thanking them, lil’ Miss Hanoi Jane.
Cliff and Caveat I can respect you. Cliff, you have an impressive bio. Glenn, I agree with shark, you’re just a loon. Shark and Republog,you’re wasting your time with the likes of these, here. And I apologize for the minority, selfish and ignorant Mimi’s in this world, and thank you, and all the other brave who are willing to serve or have served, for the right reasons. Art Laguna is a great hero, a husband, father, brother, son, and grandpa. There are givers and there are takers in this world, sadly! I think there is one thing we all agree on here: that war is a terrible and very costly thing, and no one wants to see it. Now, let’s not waste any more time with the takers.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:55 pm
oops,I may have a correction after re-reading some posts, Caveat, ok good you served for 3 years, thank you. I have a question. How were you discharged? Honorably or dishonorably? And are you still receiving any vets benefits? Or have you since your change of heart? I may have respect for you. (that breaks your heart, I know:))
Also, let’s not forget here, soldiers are tax payers, too! How many folks do a job where they pay for some of their own salary? (And many of them living below poverty level!) Compare that to our welfare system, those who are living better, and don’t even work for it!!!! Now that is something to change!!
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:39 pm
mommabird4, I was honorably discharged and have on rare occasions utilized the VA hospitals. They’re the best in my opinion. Really caring and such.
I hope you’ll grant that eighteen to twenty somethings, these days, are just the right age for manipulation. I won’t discount thier energy, enthusiam or patriotism. Nor will I discount thier experiences. I will condemn the lying pervs, that foment useless wars for the bucks they’ll net. Defend them if you feel the need.
After rereading the above thread, I confess, I overlooked mimi’s GI ‘jack ass’. I stand corrected on that. Rude. Perhaps mimi doesn’t appreciate the soldiers perspective, but it is my opinion that the young people who, for whatever propaganda and pressures they absorb, joined up to serve in Iraq, have certainly been “fooled once”. It is not my intention to give them my attention as they argue in support of the not so superlative policies of this administration. Those who have not ’served in the military are no less entitled to their opinions, nor are those opinions any less valuable, only differently informed.
I’ll also give props to any man or woman who joined before this wonnerful presidential adventure, for it can be fairly said that prior to the supreme cts awarding the presidency to bush, few of us would have anticipated just how far into ’screwed-up’ his crowd would be driving us. In any case, IT IS TIME TO REDIRECT.
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Thanks caveat. I agree we are ALL equally entitled to our opinions (I never said we weren’t) and we can thank the fights for those freedoms and democracy, right? And the interest in different opinions is what brings us to discussions like these. I don’t know that Blackwater is or isn’t illegal, but I do know that Art DID NOT do it for the money. He didn’t have to. I thought the beginning of this all was about him in re: to his bro’s writing. Then folks just wanted to trash him as a human being and say horrible things, that is not fair, not very peace-like nor were the things being said, true of Art. Art is a very patriotic soldier, a very good man, who only, like sooo many others, is/was fighting for what he believed in was protecting the very ones that so heartlessly will trash him here, and helping those in Iraq that do want a safer, better way of life. What does that say? I mean, really c’mon here, people. Have a heart. He has family, loved ones, how disrespectful. How would you all feel, if this was one of yours being so disrespected?
You, being a prior soldier, know what kind of life it can be. You know what hard work and sacrafices that are made, to put it mildly, right? As special forces, I am fully aware of what kind of life you led, during that time. And I do thank you and fully respect you for your willingness to serve and an honorable discharge. The military…it’s a tough job, but someone’s got to do it, right? Do folks here have a better way? I would so love to hear that answer. I for one, would love to think that our nation and the whole world, for that matter, could just all hold hands, sing kumbiya(sp?), and all be one with total peace. Until then, I am thankful we have those who make sure N. Korea doesn’t nuke us, and for those who are trying to keep world terror at bay. Can any of you imagine just where we might be without our Military? A scary thought. Take care all~
February 23rd, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Mommabird, I will stand with the man that sent 55,000 of our boys to their deaths, along with some 3 million Vietnamese. For what because I think it mat have amused him.
[paragraph]
In Haig’s presence, Kissinger referred pointedly to military men as “dumb, stupid animals to be used†as pawns for foreign policy. Kissinger often took up a post outside the doorway to Haig’s office and dressed him down in front of the secretaries for alleged acts of incompetence with which Haig was not even remotely involved. Once when the Air Force was authorized to resume bombing of North Vietnam, the planes did not fly on certain days because of bad weather. Kissinger assailed Haig. He complained bitterly that the generals had been screamin for the limits to be taken off but that now their pilots were afraid to go up in a little fog. The country needed generals who could win battles, Kissinger said, not good briefers like Haig.
[paragraph]
On another occasion, when Haig was leaving for a trip to Cambodia to meet with Premier Lon Nol, Kissinger escorted him to a staff car, where reporters and a retinue of aides waited. As Haig bent to get into the automobile, Kissinger stopped him and began polishing the single star on his shoulder. “Al, if you’re a good boy, I’ll get you another one,†he said.
Note: He said, did Kissinger, I never did, you silly COW!!
And repugblog SHUT UP!! Don’t you follow orders? Your are ordered STFU!! Unless you are a civilian now, and I will tell you man to man, that you have been used, and like momma says, your government would send you to your deaths, and leave your families to grieve in poverty, apart from the welfare wages they bone throw to you.
February 23rd, 2007 at 5:36 pm
and momma, I was born German, and am sworn American.
MOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
February 23rd, 2007 at 6:52 pm
mommabird4,…It’s a dirty job, but somebodys got to do it, should only be true in as much as the soldiers are properly and legally directed. If henry Kissenger were in the kumbayah circle, not only would I not sing, I’d be spitting in his eye. He’s not the only one who thinks of those young patriot fools as fodder. I don’t mean to insinuate that military service is only done by fools either, only that, since so much of the credibility of thier efforts is determined by the civilian ‘leadership’, and as you may be beginning to suspect, that ‘leadership is not always motivated by the spirit that may drive the grunt to join up, these young soldiers are subject to abuses of the global scale. I’m talking about all the lies that are and have been involved in this present fubar. The admin needed to get out from under the debacle that was Enron. It needed to sleep through all the intel warnings about terrorist attacks inside the U.S. (either out of incompetence or to justify the new policies as they’ve come into being). It needed to erase the spy plane captured by the Chinese and the submarine wasting the cruiser in the Pacific. The admin needed to pull off a war to justify the supreme courts irrational decision supporting its ascension, and to re-engineer the economy to better feed the industries that supported thier election in the first place, and that meant war in the middle east.
The military, despite its credo to kill, maim or injure the enemy, is not in of itself a bad thing. My complaint is more about letting psychopathic liars, and crooks indicate just who the enemies are. That needs to be carefully checked.
Forgive my windyness, but one more thing, Before I rotated out of the military myself, I did encounter recruiters for security of oil pipline work. They were offering a pretty penny, but the risks were high, (it was assumed). One thing about thier efforts was that there weren’t to be the limitations that the U.S. military had to live with. The lid was off in lotsa ways.
February 23rd, 2007 at 7:31 pm
I like that Americans are fighters, and independent diverse thinkers. We do not hail the king so to speak. I like that everyone gets a say. I do not buy into all the various “conspiracy theories” from the JFK assasination, to Johnson vietnam era, and bush jr protecting his daddy. Sure, there were no WMD’s in Iraq and there is no winning over these people after bombing the hell out of them and the insurgency. It looks very much like Vietnam. Its friggin messy. Who on Sept 10th would have said lets go to war with Iraq and take over Afghanistan as well. I didnt hear you friggin kooks saying talking this crap on Sept 12th. Why dont we all just hold hands and talk about it and it will go away. Why dont we extend the olive branch to the mujahadeen, and the others who have declared a holy war many years prior to anything being done. I am very sure on Sept 10th if we would have smoked a peace pipe with them the plane hijackings would have never happened. Its very convieniet for the cowards of the world to say let diplomacy take its time. All I am saying is this has been done before when America egages in isolationism and says the we are going to stay out of world business and then Hitler came you lame German duck. I know that the military is a tool of foreign policy (cannon fodder) no shit sherlock. Everyone has their part in America. If my part is to go off and protect our global interest while you stay home with the women and children I dont have a problem with that. I would just hope that other citizens would do thier part as well to make America a better place. That includes paying taxes and maybe voting and getting involved. If the dumbasses out there think they can do it better then put your money down. Sacrafice something to make this a better place. Words are free Glenn but keeping your butt safe so you and your family can live in a safe country are not. You have not espoused any great ideas to get us further along as a country I have waited patiently but still nothing and I got some news for you. Just because your a civillian doesnt mean that you own the military. You cant really tell me that you believed that did you? I am really curious to see what your belief system is. You are entitled to them but so far you sound very just disgruntled but I am not following the logic other that you think military people are stupid for following the president and we are fodder. Yes, yes I got it but now explain yourself .
February 23rd, 2007 at 7:34 pm
I think Glenn is an lying butthole
February 23rd, 2007 at 7:35 pm
Glenn is not that bad, he can be re-educated
February 23rd, 2007 at 7:36 pm
Glenn may have inhaled
February 23rd, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Sign up and sign away your right to complain in public, or wonder upon any civilians rights to criticize, you no lnoger have this. You gave it away when you joined. Speaking when not spoken to in the military is insubordination. OBEY! You agreed to it.
I would never join organized military due to my personal background, I would be disowned by my family. We do not respect it, because we have photo albums full of pictures that show what the result of wrong belief can yield.
They have seen what the mindless attitude under evil civilian direction can yield.
That does not preclude being partisan or paramilitary, like Caveat says, that way you can operate with the lid off, and I’m just a lid off kind of guy. Not going to be waiting around for orders when the “enemy” shows up, going to act completely unpredictably, then melt back into my home. Sound familiar? It’s what Patriots did.
Minutemen.
February 23rd, 2007 at 7:45 pm
You put something on the line. I think glenn is a shithouse lawyer. Full of good ideas of things to do with other peoples time and money but words come to god damn easy. The young kids who join are penetrated by thoughts of fighting and patriotism and know they are tools and are fine with it. Its not a welfare system they are seeking. Many have bad experiences or grow up a little along the way. But the point is they give themselves to thier country. I do not advocate war for any people. As a national conversation I think its counterproductive to throw stones but not have a better plan than the existing one. Our country did not declare a holy war and seek this out to its end. We were attacked. Civillians were attacked. Glenn did nothing about it. Glenn cries for peace but most likely has done nothing about it.
February 23rd, 2007 at 7:47 pm
ok that was me writing to caveat (mistake)
February 23rd, 2007 at 7:49 pm
Repugblog, you don’t know me. The German BND(intelligence) warned our incompetent, or complicit government months in advance of the attacks that they were coming. I can produce the news story from the Frankfurter Aligemiene Zietung. A paper of record. Millions of Europeans read those stories 3 months before 911. Our government did NOTHING!! Why do you think we have no support you silly knothead? Kissinger had your kinds number for sure. And then he made good use of you in name of profitable fascism. What a knob you are.
I have been singing the same tune since 2:00 EST Sept. 11. This is Fascism you dumbfuck, my family lived it, and I am hardly going to do my part to HELP you or it.
If you wish to be a a soldier in an amoral cause, don’t expect ME to LIKE you, anymore than people who got invaded liked the Germans.
Civilians do own your asses once you sign up, read your Oath again. The Constitution is NOT a military document. You are sworn to it. This is a civilian democracy. I am committed to that, that is what I give to the struggle. What we have done is not serving our “global interests”, or any real interests anyone can see. Point the way.
The actions in Iraq are in no way keeping us safe, they are fucking us, and making us enemies. Who is standing with us. The brits even are splitting. Boy sounds like the Germans at wars end, nobody around but the fools that started it.
February 23rd, 2007 at 7:50 pm
sure you can disagree with any president or politics. no one is asking you to join the military either.
February 23rd, 2007 at 7:55 pm
another thing Glenn. American military get to say what they think. There are rules about including the military in your own political beliefs or going to rallies and such. In America we get to disagree and speak our mind and the military gets due process as well. We have a chain of command and it does lead to the president (any elected president) but it does not include you. Thats the cool thing, see I get to have beliefs and disagree with politics just as much as anyone else. When the time comes to fight, I strap it on for the country no matter what I think, and you go back to you cowards nest where you are safe and can continue to shop online for panties and purses.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:02 pm
Its all easy to say now post 9/11. I think you are full of crap. No one was ringing the alarm in the country prior to. Its so easy for you to talk crap. Sure you are going to pull out and not help our government be facist or make any more enemies. I am not talking about what you wont do. I am asking you what is your stake in this country? You are entitled to sit back and not do a damn thing for it but you STFU if you dont like the decisions afterwords. You hiding. You are a god damn coward.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:06 pm
Furthermore, Germany is a shitty country. I would run from that shitty country to and come to a much better country especially if I had shitty leaders that did shitty things to the entire world. Welcome to America asshole now take your ungrateful ass back.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:06 pm
Glenn doesn’t care what you think, and that is his privilege. You wanna be a boy scout? I’m not stopping you. As the Germans say, your “beer”.
Before 911, I told numerous people about the article in this Country, my duty. I was not a citizen then. I was a Green card holder. I went on, and on about it. Americans in their typical way, don’t like to hear “conspiracy theories” so whatever I said fell on deaf ears.
Then bush sent you morons to Iraq, after NOT capturing Osama, or even denting him in all apparent reality 5 years later. You SAPS. Now you are in Iraq fighting an insurgency, because bush sent you as INVADERS. Don’t tell me about what I have to give. You could live a lifetime of penance and not rectify what your jingo mind has followed and wrought.
Don’t worry, we will pay for it, like we have paid for your dumbass salaries,and helathcare, and pensions, and all the rest. What I find particularly amusing is how bush has short shrifted you on the money end, for your “sacrifice” why shouldn’t he? You obviously “sacrificed” for his lies, what’s a little more “sacrifice”
bush figures you’ll get nothing, AND LIKE IT!!
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Read the article DUMBFUCK!! READ IT!! READ IT!!
I don’t have to leave, I am grateful to be here, and I am your EQUAL, and if you insist on supporting a FASCIST regime, in disrespect to your Oath, and your obligation to defend the Constitution, those of here, have really no choice to look upon you, as many of my own ancestors did, as their Country drove off a cliff, as a NAZI FASCIST!!!
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Its so god damn funny to think Americans are so stupid and everyone else in the world were laughing at us with the “kick me” sign on our backs. I am not talking about Iraq now. As a so called sworn American that you are, it does not incense you to think the innocent were attacked that day? You dont want any part of that do you coward? You want to just sit back fold your arms and think that those americans are so stupid “I could have told them it would happen. hell, I even read about it..ha.ha.” You are hiding behind your words.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:14 pm
I am doing it right now. This is Patriotic service to my Constitution.
I am confronting A FASCIST that does not even recognize himself.
Fuck you, never again. Learn the hard way fool, yet I know you have, your buddy is DEAD!
More love or leave it crap, so when are you setting up the gulags? Oh wait, we have in gitmo, we had one in Abu Graib. This story is so over, and I assure you, you can’t make me leave, and I have absolutely no fear of your ilk. You will be stomped by Patriots.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:18 pm
Fun thread eh Caveat, or Cliff?, or anyone that is sick of these people, and their self righteous attitudes.
Did all I dummy, As Gumps Mom said, Stupid is as stupid does. Are you certain the buildings were destroyed by the hijackers, many people don’t believe the official conspiracy theory. Not my job anyway, was not a citizen. I was often asked why I cared so much, being a green card holder. It isn’t your Country they would say.
You forgot the first rule of serving your Country, as a Citizen, whose rights you supposedly defend…
DON’T TREAD ON ME!!!
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:20 pm
If you are a fellow citizen. I have no problem with your equal rights. I also have no problem with sacrafice that I have made as they were not for politicians. The constitution does not make me subservient to you either? I believe in diversity and that you get your say. I am just saying I dont agree with it and I think you are hiding behind the words. Who paid the price for you to even be a citizen. If you have got nothing to make us better then obviously you came to us for a better life. I am a born and bred American and I can tell you to go the fuck home if you dont like it. I am not going to your shitty country and throwing stones am I.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:23 pm
How many rounds is this fight? What is the scorecard? Angelo Dundee stop the fight!
Somebody is reeling and I don’t want to punch him again, he already has BRAIN DAMAGE!!
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Germany was so great wasnt it? Cmon tell us.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:28 pm
I have got your story down dude. You came from germany where the miltary was stacked up like cordwood because of bad leadership. Your country fled to america where they could find a better way of life. Now that your here your not happy with what we are doing or our system. You are not going to make any sacrafices except pay your taxes. Thats good. We really just need you right where you are monitoring your shitty blogs and throwing stones at our system and staying the fuck out of the way while the rest of america works to make this a better and more diverse place.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:29 pm
Did all I could dummy. The Constituion does not make you subservient. The Militray Code of Conduct DOES! Obey your masters when in uniform, WE tell your bosses, they TELL you. That is all.
I am an American you dumbfuck. When I swore my Oath, the Officer said “WELCOME, You now stand equal to the likes of George Washington, and Abraham Lincoln”. Won’rt soon forget it.
This is fundamental equality, I need only serve the Constitution as a civilian, or serve when called, that is MY duty. What you do is your deal, if you support a man that has defied the Constitution, and has defied all oversight, for all whatever service you have done, you NAME YOURSELF A TRAITOR!!
Your bearing is one of a FASCIST, and my sworn off Country knows the marks WELL!
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:32 pm
You are not getting the fact that I dont have a problem with you speaking your mind. The American way is to make it better than yesterday. We all disagree but god dammit this is America. We fuckin fight each other if we have to but we fight and we work and compromise to make tommorrow better. IF you are not down for the fight then sit back down bitch boy cause theres work to do and apparently your not up to it.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:35 pm
correction; There is no code of conduct in the american military that makes military personnel subservient to just any civillian. You dont really believe that shit your saying do you?
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:37 pm
you dont tell my bosses shit unless you are voting. If you are voting then apparently you lost the god damn vote .
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:37 pm
see how that part works hitler
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:38 pm
Germany is so great. After its defeat a template was placed upon it, to guarantee that FASCISM could never return. A new government was formed and Germany never looked back
THAT TEMPLATE WAS, AND STILL IS, THE US CONSTITUTION!!
With some modifications as time has passed. They are living our dream, while we are busy DESTROYING IT!!
I was born in 62, you are an assumptive moron are you not? I had nothing to do with that history, my Dad came here on adventure, and because he was well trained, he was highly sought after here for his skills. He was 5 at wars end. You are a rather assumptive moron are you not?
Are you claiming that the military is not somehow not under Civilian command? That would make you a supporter of some brand of military dictatorship if need be. I am glad that you have come here and revealed yourself. It is clear tyhe civilian command has some serious problems.
This is after all how the government in Germany fell to the nazis.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:40 pm
You are weak of heart. You dont like whats going on so your going to take your football and go home. Do something, vote for something else next time. I am saying your a pussy for just complaining about the decision but doing nothing about it.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:41 pm
What are you going to do repupblob, go work for 200k a year for blackwater, which the last time I checked my RV manual, is what SHIT is referred to.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:44 pm
the military is under the control of an elected government not you. You are crazy if you really think I have to do or listen to your orders
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:46 pm
This is fun blog, want to continue?, I am getting a beer, to match yours. Who si going anywhere?
I am saying you are a traitor fascist, I’ll take pussy over that any day. I have cut my teeth on a hard life, and am a citizen. Are you going back to Iraq, to prove your manhood. If you go back why? If we civilians call you back, will you stay and fight on because the cause is just? Or will you merc yourself out to whoever will hire you for your skills.
If it is so imporatant, will you stay and die for Iraq, even if we are done with the debacle? Let me know, it will defien your sacrifice.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:46 pm
I am going to keep serving my country in serveral ways. I dont just give up and scrap the plan because someone disagress with me or I with them. I will probably doing disaster relief somewhere in this country in this year or the coming years, but I should skip your house because you have got it all under control dont you
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:50 pm
I am not a member of blackwater nor do I plan on being. It is true, the military is called upon to be fodder I am not argueing that. If that makes me a dumbass, I am ok with that. I still think your a puss and words are cheap
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:50 pm
You really are stupid. Of course it is. I am not going to order you, the description of you being under civilian command is true in the larger sense, and also in the personal sense. If your dumbass transgresses civilian law, the police will come, and arrest you, and then take you to the slammer. After we are done with you, you will likely be then have to come to terms with a court of military justice, that will go on from where we left you off.
Depending on what did, then you can be civilly sued by the complainant, for whatever assets you possess.
You really have put yourself in a pretty tight box.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Last comment; OK. So who are you, and why should I care?
I am an American. What in the hell are you?
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:53 pm
If you follow the blog, I am not beating my chest over Iraq either. traiter does not define a person in this country who serves in the military. loyalist maybe. maybe you could learn a lesson. I am not the one who ran from my country.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:59 pm
You dont have to care who I am. Arent we really all just brothers. Well then lets just have a brotherly fight. I serve because I want to make this country better. If I get sent to clean up a hurricane or protect ones who cant protect themselves or to fucking iraq then so be it. I am allowed to have a fucking opinion and piss others off while doing it just like you are. I dont care if you dont respect that either. I know you are not shedding any fucking tears either. We all define making it better a little differnly thats why we vote. Sometimes I lose my vote but I still serve. I dont think you do that from your comments.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:01 pm
I have never been to your blog. My hard nosed stance is the product of innocents being killed, and hapless military people. It is a good exercise for what is coming.
As my best friends old Vermont Dad used to tell us, he served on an Iowa class battleship in the Pacific, blew away many a soul No cheering or jingoism upon destruction of the enemy on that boat, or you would end up in the brig. I can relate the entire tale.
He used to tell us as a fan of Ben Franklin;” Experience is the best teacher, and fools will learn by no other”.
Anyone at Nurnberg that was engaged in War crimes that could be indentified were either imprisoned or hanged. Following orders and thinking you were doing the right thing DIDN’T matter. Keep that in mind on the battlefield. \
My friends old Dad. His skipper told them as they left Pearl, that they were to be engaged in a “dirty, filthy, job, and in killing others, your SOUL may be forfeit”. Direct quote. He I would follow, the current crop of leaders, NO WAY.
Be careful and God Bless.
This has been a personal contest, but it has drawn you out, revealed much, Thanks.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:09 pm
To relate the tale, glennhoefer@yahoo.com, and I am on yahoo messenger, if you have a mic we can talk, or just chatbox like here. My family has been engaged in warfare, led there against their will, some died for it, some killed their wounded friend sto end their suffering. Not many hospitals on the eastern front. You can learn what I know, or discount it. I don’t care. I only know what I won’t support, and what I will fight to stop.
Troops should not be over in countries, where we have set the stage with our own terrible policies. Like supporting saddam, giving him weapons, like supporting all manner of despots for a while and then calling the military top clean it up when it spoils.
I am against it, nothing you say can change that. Brow beatings over getting involved and sacrifice mean nothing to the dead. Only the living reckon that way. If you are sure, go ahead make the sacrifice, be sure, that I am sure, of where I stand, and why I hold my opinions as I do. WE are adversaries, and I owe you nothing. I will make peace, but on my terms.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:16 pm
Service in a bad cause is worse than nothing. If you believe firmly go ahead but don’t expect people to shine your medals, or feel any less than you are for not serving.
As Shackleton said when asked how he managed to survive 17 months on the Antarctic ice, keeping himself and all of his expedition alive, in a series of miraculous events that defy any reasonable acountability of survival….when asked the question he said…
“When I was in doubt, I did nothing” something to consider in the action oriented world. Once you act in ERROR, the die is cast, and you can wind up dead, and worse, you can take a lot of innocent people with you.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:43 pm
This is a first for me, to have my name stolen in a troll attack. I jumped down a bunch of what I am sure are inane and insane troll posts only to tell mr. reptile man how uncool that is. Taking lessons from his ’superiors’ again, eh?
Finally Glenn, I like the way you think! Thankyou.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:13 pm
ok look the name thing was a mistake. I am a troll fine.
and look I think you are entitled to your opinions. also lack of acting can cost lives as well so that argument doesnt work for me. as i said earlier maybe i should skip your house if i am acting in a natural disaster as directed by my domestic leaders.
this is about our national values of everyone getting a say and then voting and supposedly the majority rules and then one person gets the call after that. we can all disagree and vote otherwise next time. I dont expect that at least 49% of americans will see things the way i do and you may be in that category. i dont believe in solving problems by war. it is an unfortunate occurrance of life. your looking down the nose to military doesnt solve it either. vote and go out and get others to vote your way and maybe it will be a better tommorrow.
I will pose you this. what if we had a military that only served in causes that they saw fit to serve in. do you think that would work?
and if the military serves under civillians (much like yourself) then who is to blame for sending them and fucking things up. many past presidents regardless of political party have used the military to achieve national strategic goals which ones were right and which were wrong? what does history say and whats your opinion?
Was america right to enter ww2 after pear harbor?
Were we right for retaliation after the beirut marine barracks bombing?
just because we knew about the potential hijackings does it mean we just let it go after so many were killed.
How do we defend ourselves from future terrorist attacks? or do we just wait. what if your town or neighborhood is next should I laugh about the article or information i get?
i mean you tell me cause i may not understand?
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:16 pm
also glenn get off the serving in the military thing. no one is asking you to serve in the military. if you are a concerned american citizen then yes, i am saying serve your community and state and the people right around you with civic service.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Your outlook on why there is war is primitive to me. War is about money, no matter what anyone says. Land grabs and the control of the material is its source. There are no honorable wars in my view, and this has been going on since man was a beast and simply clubbed someone because they were on his turf. Like dogs. Dogs of war.
The moral justification has always come into play in order to get the “moral” on board. Wars are started by evil people. This time it’s us. If Osama knocked down the towers, why then are we in Iraq? Why are we making Canada fight our battle in where Osama was, in Afghanistan?
The Japanese attacked us, why?
Why did we nuke them?
Terrorism is simply a tactic in warfare, most effective was Ghengis Kahn, he did not discriminate, he killed everyone. I guess our disgusting habits as humans now can be blamed on him. WAR IS TERROR!! If you have killed people you know this. Everybody is totally terrified, except the SICKOS! It isn’t what God intended for us.
We stood toe to toe with the Russians. They had ICBMS, tanks, jet aircraft, 10 million soldiers, a complete navy, missiles of ever description. Yet we stood firm for 55 years and wore them down. “Terrorists have none of these things, only afew items, and complete hatred of our dominance over them, and the people we have sponsored, and the death we have delivered. Look at Baghdad. What would you do to the people that bombed you if your neighborhood looked like that? It’s very simple. now we frighten the Russians, and they have and build what they need to destroy us. China standing right behind them.
The war in Iraq has proven our weakness, we can be beaten. We have broken SunTzus advice to NEVER reveal to your enemy weakness. Too late, it’s DONE!!
WE have also broken the ruleof not cornering desperate people, always leave them an out. If you do not psychic barriers are breached, and you deal with man in a survival state. We do not possess the will of the insurgency, they fight for survival, with no quarter expected or given. Deadly enemy, no matter how armed. Can you say that. Will you stay and fight them with nothing like they you, after we civilians tell you we are DONE??? I doubt it. We need to deal with our own troubles.
The war in error, is a smokescreen for theft, soldiers are the crowbar, to break enter and STEAL!! Simple. The insurgency won’t quit, they have no benes, no pensions, no hospitals anymore, no transport, no medicine, no nothing, yet they fight on.
WHO ARE THE PUSSIES????
We were in Lebanon why? Reagan pulled us out, an intelligent decision.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:13 pm
From a man that sent millions to their DEATHS! Hated his job, just wanted to go fishing. We owe him, we should stop our theft in Arabs lands, because it is wrong one, two, the Parthians are mean mothers when pushed, they will NEVER stop. REp, do you mean to genocide them to “win”?
CROSS OF IRON
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children…
This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.
From the Chance for Peace address delivered before the American Society of Newspaper Editors, April 16, 1953. (Regarded as one of the finest speeches of Eisenhower’s presidency.)
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:19 pm
Uh, this one is just great, see, if you support bush and what he is doing then you really are stupid, as far as IKE is concerned.
Ike also was once asked about premptive war. He said if anyone came to his office and proposed it, he would
“bodily throw them out of my office..”
His quote, just visionary really;
“Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.”
President Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1952
He was right, too bad the American people were WAAAAY dumber than he thought.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:32 pm
Disaster relief, hoo boy, after New Orleans that one really grates. BUSH IS THE FUCKING DISASTER!! Do your job as he is a traitor, and we civilians are seemingly unable to remove him. You have this citizens permission.
Do not come to my house in case of disaster, I will be helping my neighbors without pay, benes, medical insurance, we don’t need you where I live. We also can protect ourselves.
Were you ever a Boy Scout? Modeled after the Hitler Youth you know. With some modifications.
I don’t like people that feel their mission in life is to do good. I would rather that you would all simply BE GOOD!!
February 24th, 2007 at 7:52 am
Rep. I was flattered that you’ld do that. Swift-boating is a creative, though futile response to the truth. As Cliff has indicated, your arguments are welcome here, I’m in agreement. Education and attitude adjustments are available for the growth inclined. There’ll always be more down the line who get suckered. The powers that be are banking on it, that’s inevitable. I’m glad to have had this encounter. Thanks.
February 24th, 2007 at 8:56 am
Glenn, hahaha…look who is the self-righteous one now! Take heed to your own advice. You moron, doing good and being good, go hand in hand! And what good is it that you do? I’d love to know. MOOOOO???WTF does that mean? Ok, so why aren’t you living in Germany, if America is sooo bad???If you can’t get back into your country, Iraq will take you!
The ungrateful likes of you is why America should NOT and should have NEVER opened the flood gates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am paying the taxes for that! And I don’t like it. Just go back to Germany, please. It’s a beautiful country and your beer mug shall be runeth over!!!BTW, I am soooo glad you will be protecting yourself, and that you won’t need any help where you live. I’ll tell them to just give you the royal salute, as you sit on your rooftop! Oh, and there might be a reason that no one listened to you with your crazy theories, Mr. know-it-all. Honestly, I’m sorry, but you are really out there, I’m an open-minded person, but Geeeez, you’re like to the point of kinda scary.
February 24th, 2007 at 10:28 am
ps. Rep is correct. He has said nothing that goes against against any code of conduct, or oath; only SUPPORT for our country, and Military. You don’t have a pot to piss in, here. Are you seriously that crazy, or just having to stoop to some kind of ridiculous scare tactics? Simply unbelievable. You on the other hand…..a legal immigrant, speaking the way you do, I consider a traitor. And yet, we have to sit and understand that you have been given that right to free speech. As much as you would like to think,you are NOT his chain-of-command, simply ridiculous. Is that what they teach you in naturalization school? Holy cow! The only thing he is guilty of here is wasting his time to respond to some of this crazy garbage. Other than that, I’m pretty sure his real chain of command would applaud him. Oh and another thing…when you join to serve your country, you don’t get the luxury to just jump ship of f and on, depending on if you like the current Pres/admin. or not. It is called a commitment. Something you may not understand or have the strength or gut for. (maybe in your former life; fish killer, now that’s something to be proud of) Now, at the end of your commitment, if you’ve had a change of heart, or you don’t like the Pres. or the way your boots don’t match your uniform, or what our country stands for, you are free to go, as Caveat did, honorably. In fact, this IS a voluntary military, and unless there is a stop loss, because you are needed to fullfill your commitment, or you can come up with any of those lame excuse loopholes that I have seen many a coward use:(you mean I might have to actually do some work for my free college? Fight in a war? Leave my family? Oh I saw it and signed to it, but I didn’t think I would really ever have to, my recruiter didn’t say that. or I”M GAY, or I’m pregnant, or I am all of a sudden a moral objector~love that one!)with some paperwork you can still be discharged~free to go. But with the likes of some here, thanks~we may be forced to bring back the draft. What are your better answers, here, people??? Have a country jut run amuck, with no order? Our system is not flawless, I know, but I have yet to see here any attempt for better solutions. I am waiting.
February 24th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
While i wait….visiting this thread, has resurfaced some disturbing questions in my mind. With a few exceptions; taking out the extreme sickos, in our society, I am a believer that our country, as a whole, is a peace loving and seeking nation. And I believe all here, writing their opinions, embrace that same thing. Am I right, or just an optimist. However, here, I am reminded of what I will call some real domestic division. See, where I live, my community, and beyond, just doesn’t have that. Some have voted for Bush, some have not. Some believe this war was necessary, some do not. (none like war, though)Most of us were born here, some were not. But no matter the differences, we are a very unified community, thankful to live in the USA, respectful of each other, appreciate, love, and support our country, and those who are sent in harm’s way, I hear nothing but support and prayers for them. And so my troubling questions are: how domestically divided are we really? How widespread is it really? In a desperate time of needed peace, can we all rise above it? Is national peace possible? Is world peace possible? What really divides it? Oil, landgrabs, terrorists, religion, politics, money, ignorances, egos, immigration, a little bit of all of the above and more???? We’ve come along way from the “clubbing” ways (Cliff), but it starts here with us, folks. We’ve gotta pull it together, understand and respect our differences, but be willing to compromise, and put it aside for the sake of peace. It’s not that hard!!! Or we’ll have our own civil war, and send this place straight to hell in a handbasket. I don’t want that for my children, or any future generations!!! Or maybe all of these threads have just been for entertainment purposes?? In any case……Pray for peace.
February 24th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
OK, mammabird4, I’ll bite.
The better answer, as you would have us believe, is to let any scumbag who ascends to the presidency by whatever unsavory means it can, contrive any war that it seems to favor, any time it is convenient, and utilize the talents and energy of an unquestioning mass of youth, sold the ‘patriotic’ B.S. There will be no resistance from those who father and mother these youth nor from the kids themselves. That should suffice to steal the resources of any target group, however unthreatening, for our SUVs and because we can. Lies are not only admissable but good strategy. The duration is not the issue, forever may just be too short a time, and the costs? meaningless…we have the rich to protect. I risked my life for this preposterous argument and your posts make me wonder if I did the right thing.
My honorable discharge means nothing. I paid no attention to the Geneva conventions or any moral laws, written or unwritten..I survived by manipulating every avenue available to me and am proud to have helped bring an end to another ridiculous war. Otherwise we’d still be fight in Vietnam, which frankly, I’m surprized we’re not. You’ll be surprized, however, when in twenty years we’re still not out of the middle east and any survivors among the locals will have something in thier stare that will make you blanch with guilt and fear. Quite possibly neither you nor your kids nor thier kids may ever leave Kansas again. It will become your prison.
There, are you happy now?
February 24th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Mommabird, your 2:09 post came in while I composed my latest. I’m greatful that you’ve calmed some. I’ll give calming a go myself. This divide of which you write does indeed need bridging.
February 24th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
MOOOOO!, Means you are a stupid cow. I’m calling you bossy!!
Doing good is subjective, being good is an objective observation of God. One your bovine mind cannot seemingly comprehend.
Another love it or leave it dunce are you. you don’t have the right, so we can ignore your ignorance.
We are free here, you have no power or claim over what this country has to offer. I can dislike you if i wish, and further, I have no respect for you. You are a TORY FASCIST!! You should be scared, our Founding Fathers, tarred and feathered your ilk, and burned their homes, then sent you packing to places like Canada.
I mean to improve America, first step is to udderly defeat your pathetic herd beast ilk, politically. Not a problem, from what I can see.
You are scared, that is obvious, our Founding Fathers were described in the manner you describe me. I am proud of that. Read some history, maybe some Tom Paine, or Patrick Henry, or have a beer with Ethan Allen, they were Patriots, and unafraid of such whelps as post against Freedom here. You are useless, and will be rectified.
February 24th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
You will be waiting a long time, wait, while bush milks ya bossy!!
Do not expect compromise from here, after supporting lying traitors. You are in the paint now, and there is no turning back. Your kind can never be trusted again. Get it?
Hide, shut up, or something. When the tide turns, i expect you all to become VERY quiet. I would recommend that.
The mark of greatness is CLEMENCY, and when this is over, and bushfraud thrashed out it will be offered. ONCE!! Betray that, and expect the vengeance you DESERVE!
The Constitutional penalty for treason, in a time of war…is DEATH, by HANGING!!
February 24th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Where do you live momma, it may explain much. I can guarantee in the 10 states that pay all the bills, bush and this crap war policy, is DEAD MEAT!
The States that get less than they pay out in Federal taxes are:
New York 20 States break even, the other 20 are BASKET CASES!!
Connecticut
New Jersey So where are you from, momma?
Florida
Illinois
California
Washington
Nevada
Texas
Ohio
February 24th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
boy I gave you guys too much credit!!!!!!!! I think you all are the psycos and sickos in this world I was referring to. And sooo ignorant yourself, you did not even understand a single word i said, obviously. No one addresses a single issue.
Take a good guess, where I live, you think you’re sooo f’n smart…..one hint: It’s def inately not Kansas. Oh and still no good solutions here, just cowardly and indecent threats, just as i predicted. You guys don’t scare me, only fuel my fire and convince me more on the belief of what lies here…You narrow minded morons, I never said I cared if you liked me, i don’t even care if you agree with me or not, I am not here to convince anyone anything! (just using my right for free speech) So it’s clear, peace is not what you are all after, here. So what is it then? A group that just sits back and complains about what they don’t like in this world??? Or a bunch of twisted and disgruntled unibombers??? white supremeists group? ???Is that how they grow them in Utah???
February 24th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
throw momma…don’t you dare claim to know my kind. You have no idea.
Caveat…i have been calm all along. seems i hit a defensive nerve with you all tho.
Glenn, nothing changes here, except your parents should be slapped for raising a poor excuse of a son, like you. Cows take dumps smarter than you. moooooo..how lame. Grow up you guys and get a real life!
February 24th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
you didn’t give me squat but a headache. fly away.
February 24th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Caveat..what got your panties in such a wad, anyway? Perhaps you misunderstood something I said? I actually can agree with you on some of your points., you’re one of the few, here, that can actually speak with any real reasonable substance, rationale and decency. none of you ever heard me say i voted for this war! or that I think it is right., or that any wars have been right. But our probs started way before Bush. You should be proud for helping to end Vietnam, no argument,. there. And I am sorry, for whatever it was that makes you question putting your life on the line. Please explain.
So how do we bridge the divide??
February 24th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
I’m elsewhere right now.
February 24th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
I was a question you going to answer it? Where?
Who is threatening?, the prosecution of those that have violated their Oaths is a promise. Just a matter of time. The wheels of the gods grind slowly, but very finely.
Oh, but I don’t like you, your mentality has made people DEAD! The Founding Fathers made no peace with the crown, there will be no peace made with traitors.
February 24th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
Who can understand MOOOOOOOO?
February 24th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
I am not part of this blog, and make no claims to it. Slap my parents at your own peril, you aren’t a pimple on their butt.
They do not acknowledge people such as you that hold the opinions you do. I am much kinder.
February 24th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
Anonymous am I
February 24th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
Cav-i am really sorry that you experienced Nam. There are too many others who unfortunately have, also, but have gone on to remain positive, and do good and right things to help make sure it doesn’t happen again. I plan on doing my part to make sure the soldiers return home feeling appreciated, unlike in your era.
Glenn/throw momma and in any other voices in your head….give up? I live in one of the states on your little list, there…far from Kansas.
February 24th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
what the hell went on today. this thing took a turn. listen. I am can be just as repentant for my ways as any human being can. I just ask show me the way. so far I get peacenik code talk. listen I am a dumbass, talk me step by step thru getting peace while protecting this country. Clemency for terrorists implies that they are behind bars and the justice system took its toll. so far, glen you have not spoken the american way of voting and democracy that even admittantly your own c9untry uses. you speak of this perfect world that no one has, where there are no wars and no one dies. i ask that you kindly explain. i am ready to listen. i will be back tommorrow to see what you have to say.
February 25th, 2007 at 7:04 am
Rep, sorry but peacenick code talk may be the sound of the words I use, and may not always convey the message that: ‘terrorists’ aren’t simply those on the receiving end of ‘our righteous over-built wrath’. Sometimes, terrorists can be found in the mirror. Individual, informed choices and the consequences for them might just live with us for the rest of our lives and there’s no escaping that. Our ‘leaders’ don’t always get it right, and some times are uncannily and consistently wrong, but I, as an individual respondent to lifes exigencies, need to be informed of and careful that I live by the LAW. I leave Alberto Gonzales’ interpertation of LAW to the bushes, because as a thinking, experienced adult, I have my own.
February 25th, 2007 at 7:55 am
I am talking about CLEMENCY for YOU, and those that have allowed bushfraud to trample our Constitution. He is a Traitor, you have helped him. WE forgive that, butr QUIT DOING IT!!!
You all if you have supported this nonsense, have been these Fascists USEFUL IDIOTS!!
Treat the terrorists as the international criminals they are under the LAW, and maybe we could get some of the worlds COOPERATION!! They will not help us in the nazilike incarnation of the way we are currently operating.
February 25th, 2007 at 8:18 am
I understand about how you feel personally feel against the military and the current leadership in america. I am not asking that. I want to know the belief system. I want to understand it. I need one of you guys to explain how it works. How do we defend this country.
Glenn says that he has his own weapons and can defend his own home. Clearly in the constitution this is look at as militia. Our country has an active duty military and a national guard. should we all take arms and just defend ourselves. I am pretty sure those civillian new yorkers did not have weapons to defend themselves. what would glenn and you do if someone you loved were attacked. would you then demand the government protect you. i need to understand your point of view. the answers that i have gotten are alleged quotes and misdirections. i really am striving to see the argument. please help me.
February 25th, 2007 at 8:26 am
lastly, throw mama from train. look you god damn idiot, there is one thing that i will not stand for in these conversations. you will not come to my country and imply the death of a sitting president. you dont have balls that fucking big my friend. you dont get to come to my country and say crap like that. we dont threaten lives of our civillian leaders you ought to be ashamed of yourself you coward! take a good friggen look at yourself you friggin loon!
February 25th, 2007 at 8:29 am
Rep; Follow the Constitution, it is the Law of the Land and bushfraud has violated it. You are right follow your own law, not gonzales, he is a traitor, he and the group, are to be known from this point as bushfraud. Your own Law is the Constitution, honor it. Defend it from ALL ENEMIES, Foreign and DOMESTIC, as your Oath compels you to. bushfraud is the domestic enemy.
The evidence of their past and ongoing TREASON is all around us. Let’s skip all the lies of Iraq, and focus on the willful destruction of our Nation by not enforcing and defending our BORDERS. For this alone he should be Impeached. For the charges of treason(lying us into war) he should be tried and if convicted, hanged. The punishment for treason in time of war, being death by hanging.
You that soldier are enabled the bush family fortune and those of his cronies to grow into obscenity. In bushs case the fortune has gone from 200 million to 4.5 billion. You are the helpers of this theft.
Ou status as world leader is GONE! take a trip anywhere on Earth now and it becomes evident. People don’t hate us as individuals, they hate our government, but as time passes, they wonder on US personally.
Do not blather about 911 as defense of our current actions. If so, where is Osama? We have many doubts about the “official conspiracy theory” and want a complete review with bush and his criminal GONE, and tucked away, in prison, or their graves. They will get due process, oh yes. Constitution, the real SOLUTION!!
We civilians are getting up the sand to remove these fucks, join us, as you can see some have, Richard and Frank are a credit to you all, and us as citizens. Join us. WE want removal, i personally want VENGEANCE on these traitors, for what they have done to you, Iraq, the Constituition, and all of our better natures. Clemency is not for traitorous leaders, it is granted to the lessors, but not the primaries in my view. It is also granted to “enemies” that once defeated swear allegi