February 28th, 2007 by Cliff Lyon 
Cliff Lyon
I just had to post this. It’s my civil duty to remind us all that people like Sealpatriot are out there for real. As I’ve said many times before. There is a greater reproductive advantage in “strength of conviction” ( modern day “survival of the fittest”) than raw intelligence.
This exchange is taken from our friends at A Solider’s Perspective. I have written about them many times before.
Jeese, it’s kinda like a giant merkin flag @ half mast. I’m sure Cheney empathized straight up. I guess the peace crowd also lost the debate because we got swamped by lies and unstoppable desire to grab our oil from inder thier sand. Mission accomplished. How long will we be paying the bill?
Must get whiskey, stat!
So we should blame the invasion of Iraq on the “antiwar crowd”? Yeah, right.
Richard, I confess.
In other developments, Elizabeth de la Varga has just entered another outstanding article @Commondreams.org, reflecting where the admin was really at back when the Plame Affair got rolling. A must read.
Anybody want to sign a petition?
Admittedly, Seal Patriot did come back and apologize for the strident tone, and said some things later on in the thread that were not quite as dogmatic. At any rate, I replied to the thread. This is most of what I said:
I agree that negative talk about the war in Iraq endangers the soldiers. I was there from June 05 to June 06, and I (thought I) could see trends in violence related to what negative things were said in the US Congress and media. And it made me furious to see that I was being treated somewhat as a pawn in somebody’s chess game.
However, a lot of that negative talk is justified. Here’s why. A whole bunch of Middle East experts warned the Bush Administration about the pitfalls of an attack on Iraq, the greatest of which is the fact that if we break it we own it, so we’d better have a plan. They also warned that we would need three times as many troops to sustain an occupation than we needed for an invasion. When the military arrived in Baghdad, there was really no coherent plan given them by the Bush administration. People with expertise in the region, such as retired General Jay Garner and Anthony Zinni, were shunned aside in the thought that an attack and its follow-on in Iraq would be gloriously simple.
They also failed to consider the history of America’s involvement in Iraq, when George Bush’s father George Bush encouraged a Shia uprising, and after it occurred, gave no support to it–after which tens of thousands of Shia were killed. It was not so cut and dried that we would go into Iraq and automatically be trusted 12 years later, let alone welcomed.
These are problems that could have easily been analyzed and averted. Regardless of the inaccuracy of initial optimistic expectations, if the Bush Admin would have taken its time and planned things out after listening carefully to the people who knew something (more) about the region, we would be in a much better situation today.
In summary, I believe it is MORE patriotic to evaluate the issues and make course corrections rather than to just support the president. The Bush administration has made several mistakes for which they have scarcely apologized, and for which they should be held to account. It is worse than unfortunate that members of the US military have been caught in the mess.
I still think we can be successful there, but I think Bush’s most recent effort, by supplying 21,500 more troops falls far short of the mark.
A very articulate and well-thought comment, Frank. I’m certain, however, that our friends over at ASP and ASM will fall all over themselves trying to fashion a cogent response. Indeed, let me guess how the response will go: “If you don’t support President Bush, then you don’t support OUR troops.” Or something to that effect. Sound about right Terri? Anthony?
Frank, you’re going to make their heads explode. Even though the ASP folks often admit the Iraq occupation is a mess and that wounded soldiers are getting shafted by the government once they get home, they still cling to the belief Bush can do no wrong and has nothing to apologize for.
Look as civilians, we do not have to support our troops. They are to be supported by the military, and the command, as long as we public think what they are doing is just and having any value.
We de-facto support the troops with our tax dollars. I will gladly support the troops that realize their service is in a wasted cause. I support them so much I want them back inh the US of A.
The jingo troops, I don’t have to support, and I define my support the troops on a case by case basis when I talk to them.
The gung ho jingos DON’T have my support. As for supporting bush, I figure the Blessed Rope could support him for several minutes, then he can go back to being the useless lump he is.
OLBERMAN just KICKS ASS in this. I would let him him pull the gallows lever.
It started with an inkling, but since I had not an inkling, I said nothing.
Then it became a strong suspicion, but neither was I strongly suspicious so, again I sat quietly.
Then there was evidence, still I kept my mouth shut, surely there’s no substance to this.
Later came a confession, but my belief in the ’supreme’ cautioned me, “No, no, no!”
Now the trial results, death and corruption is all around, disbelief grasps my tired being.
Wait! What’s that ruckus…they’re kicking down MY door. That 29% and dropping sure has a lot of nerve for being brain-dead. And thier heart. What happened to thier hearts? I guess mindlessness / heartlessness is precisely what’s required to enable this selfseeking mob.
February 28th, 2007 at 5:06 pm Haystack,The Woodruff clip brought tears to my eyes as it did to yours and most everyone else with a heart who saw it. Yes, I can support the troops and feel and care for the troops and, at the same time, hold responsible those who caused this terrible suffering to occur.
February 28th, 2007 at 7:35 pm You don’t support the troops, CF! You just use there suffering to make stupid hate comments about people you don’t like in the government. Now, I know I don’t speak for the soldiers when I say what you call support is not acceptable and it doesn’t mean anything, but I do speak up for myself when I say that. I also know your denying reality when you say that the president and the Vice President are responsible for this war when the first person who brought up the need for a removal of Hussein and his Regime and the terrorist and extremists in his country was a senator of the senate armed forces committee. And that the reason why this war happened to begin with was because the antiwar crowd lost all the debates in the roughly two years it took us build a case against Hussein and his removal from tyranny because all the intel that the senate intelligence committee and the international community gave the president and this military said opposite of what the antiwar crowd says. They also lost in terms of popular support. Your also wrong because the president isn’t in a high enough position of power to influence votes and debates in congress in which it was their debate and our support(aka consent) was what produced the result of giving the military and this government the power to remove Saddam through a joint authorization resolution that significantly satisfied the Article 1 section 12 war powers resolution that is enumerated in the constitution. At the same time there is nothing illegal about our military going across the world and fighting terrorists and supporting humanitarian aid missions and supporting defense strategies in countries where there is likely to be ethnic cleansing or even genocide. There is also nothing illegal about foreign internal defense in which is what we are doing in Iraq, and Afghanistan and we did also in Columbia where we train and strengthen a police force and a military for thse countries under attack or don’t have those things or the resources to build one for themselves. The war in Iraq is over and right now we’re doing foreign internal defense. All these are legal and expressed somewhat openly in the runup to the removal of Saddam and expressed clearly throughout the campaign in Iraq. Mr. Bush was right to remove Saddam, even Kerry said that a president who would allow Hussein to stay in power shouldn’t be president. It would also be unjustified as to leave Iraq and not leave the 135 countries in their same predicament that our military helps in the same way they do for Iraq. Bush isn’t the cause of the suffering and he is the one along with our troops fighting to end that suffering by trying to beat the bad guys who bomb their own people firstly, and our troops secondly. The soldiers aren’t suffering from the fight, they are suffering because they are afraid to come home and be vocal against people like you, or Watada, or Padilla and other people or soldiers who weren’t as good soldiers or citizens as they are, or people with anti-military sentiment because they would be chanted down or physcally hurt if they stood up on their own two feet. So in fact it is you who are the cause of their suffering CF, and Jimenez, Hawk, and Gunther, not Mr. Bush. You are the cause of my suffering because not only do I have to suffer being left behind as my friends visit wartorn nations that I have always wanted to visit both as a trooper and a Catholic missionary but because I have to fight for what they believe in and what I believe in because of people like you.
February 28th, 2007 at 7:49 pm I also know that I am not the only one who is fighting for what I believe in, but like few others I am one of those people are fighting for what I believe in and having to fight people like you CF for my right to do so in general. I know you and your antiwar crowd aren’t one of those people who are fighting like I am because there are several lies that you people say other than the lie that Bush lied and your allowed to get away with it. Whereas the people who can and are disproving you and your crowd are chastised, removed of their honor, and underscored in their integrity and honor and intellect. That is not your right regardless of any election results, or the opinion of the majority or minority, or any kind of nonpartisanship. I may not know every soldier, sailor, marine or airmen, but I know lots of them and they are my friends for the most part and just acquientences for the rest and they maybe seperated far from me to be able to help me fight people like you CF because they are serving their country which includes you. But we are far more united than you are with your group because unlike you we don’t just pick people like sheehan to speak for us and when people stop paying attention to them you dump them out because their 15 minutes are up. We on the other hand show each other support by being personal friends and letting each other know we will continue to be friends long after we win our fight.