“Senator Hatch — How Do You Sleep At Night?”
I’m mostly a pacifist with the intent for peace, but every so often my warrior side comes out looking for a fight. Particularly when I run into men of power who support policies that oppress others – and then I cut loose. Like the time I ran into Mormon apostle Russell M. Nelson. We were in the Smith’s parking lot right after he had announced the Church’s support for the Federal Marriage Amendment. He had just been sealed to his second wife in the Temple – making him a polygamist in the Mormon heaven — and he had the audacity to endorse an amendment to our Constitution that would define marriage as “one man married to one womanâ€? So I got in his face and denounced him as a fraud and a hypocrite. All to the dismay of my best buddy who was with me (and who is himself the gay son of a Mormon GA).
Of course my verbal thrashing didn’t do anything to sway the man (he is, after all, self-deluded into believing he is an actual apostle of Jesus). But polite, friendly discourse wouldn’t persuade him either. So was it better then to say nothing?
Two weeks ago I was again shopping at Smiths and found myself alone in the organic food aisle with none other than Senator Orrin Hatch. I had that moment of, “God – that’s Hatch! Should I continue shopping or do I take a moment and rebuke him?†After all, it’s not everyday we common folk shop next to the yahoos who are fucking up our country. So I reached out my hand. “Senator Hatch, your support of President Bush and this war has been an absolute disaster.â€
And then we threw down.
He politely replied, “Thousands of terrorists are in America plotting our destruction.†I countered, “Then why on earth are we in Iraq?â€Â Hatch insisted that Al Qaeda was operating there prior to 911. He explained in his condescending tone that he sits on the Senate Intelligence Committee and therefore knows more than me. “As a citizen I knew Iraq didn’t have WMDs – how could I know what you didn’t?â€Â I started to explain how UN Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter debunked the intelligence but Hatch cut me off, “Ritter is full of crap.â€Â With out skipping a beat I responded, “Scott Ritter was right and you where wrong and now tens of thousands of innocent people have been murdered!â€
“We haven’t kill them…they are killing each other.â€
“Because we destroyed their country!â€
“Saddam had bio-chemical weapons.â€
“We sold them to him.â€
“You have your information wrong…â€
I had no patience for his talking points. I’m determined to just give him an earful.
“How could you support warrantless wiretaps?â€
“That was blown out of proportion…â€
“This administration has condoned torture!â€
“No they haven’t.â€
“Dick Cheney outed an American spy!â€
“Well, there have been some mistakes – but you are misinformed…â€
“The Old Testament demanded an eye for an eye. After 911 you went for a whole body for an eye – but it was the wrong body!â€
His very Mormon wife rolled up with the cart and seeing the nature of our debate, obediently backed away. I was on a roll with no intent to stop.
“You no longer have credibility! Bush no longer has credibility! You have been dead wrong about everything…â€
At this point he was through with me. And in truth, I had been a rowdy ass punk. He concluded, “There is no point talking to you — I know you represent a growing number upset about the war – but we can’t talk anymore.â€
As he walked away I delivered my final rebuke:
“The blood of thousands of innocent people are on your hands – I don’t know how you sleep at night!â€Â  He rolled his cart away and I stood alone, tremendously pleased with myself.  “That felt good!â€Â I rushed home to write everything down.
In reflection, I do believe Hatch was kind of sincere. Arrogant, yes — but sincere. These men believe their own hypnosis. Their reality is crafted by consensus. If enough men repeat the lie, then it becomes truth. But Hatch was right about one thing — I wouldn’t listen. Some may criticize me for being a dick and they would be right. And I could care less. Reason and rational discourse have no value with these men. And we Americans have become far too passive. Fuck that. We need to start kicking some shit around. We need to get angry. These men are killing our planet. They are destroying our country. And Democrats are spineless cowards who are unwilling to use their power to rein in these violent warlords. They are equally complicit in this prolonged war.
Despite my rant Hatch remains solid in his conviction. Of course. Despite the daily carnage, Hatch still stands by our decision to invade and occupy. The wellbeing and prosperity of our country trumps the misery and despair of another. Neither reasoned or passionate discourse will move him from that position. Is it better then to say nothing? What are our alternatives in a world gone mad? I don’t have an answer to that. I just believe it is our moral duty to confront power – to get in their face – and to let them hear our outrage.
With that, I don’t advocate violence of any kind. I don’t share Hatch’s devotion to Old Testament deities. I don’t believe killing brings peace. But I do believe the time for polite discourse has passed. I just pray that in time, reason and outrage will work in tandem to restore some sanity to our war-loving nation. And I hope Hatch will never again find peace in a Utah grocery aisle.
May 27th, 2007 at 8:59 am
It is easy to sleep when you masturbate.
May 27th, 2007 at 9:42 am
Yes, you were a dick. But I’m sure you feel like a totally cool dick that is unable to have a rational conversation with a sitting U.S. Senator.
Somethings deserve a little respect. Maybe when you stop wetting your pants and acting like little limp-wristed nancy-girl, you’ll understand.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:56 am
Dear Rationality Prevails — “limp-wristed nancy-girl”? Wow. Do you hate women so much that the best insult you can hurl at me is a feminine epithet? Perhaps “Mysogyny Prevails” would be a more fitting moniker for you. If you equate me with female qualities I will take it as the upmost compliment. I love women. Thank you. And no, I don’t have respect for a sitting senator whose war policies are responsible for the brutal murder of tens of thousands of innocent men and women — not to mention the mass refugee crisis of over two million Iraqis. These men have much to answer for.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Troy = hammerhead > nail.
May 27th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
You know I’m pretty thick skinned and do not get offended easily, but this post was probably the first one I have read in Oneutah.org that really pissed me off. For one thing the writer of this post, with both of his public outbursts against Elder Russel M. Nelson, which was really a bigoted attack against the LDS Church and every single member of it, and Senator Hatch (if his story is even true, because his whole story sounds like cow excrement to me) has only demonstrated his own lack of maturity, and intelligence. Oh the audacity that someone might have a different opinion than him.
May 27th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Ken:
Lies are not opinions. They are lies.
I used to work in the Southtowne Mall and all of my fellow employees knew how much I hated the entire Republican party when the impeachment of Bill Clinton was taking place. One day, one of the people I worked with told me that if I just walked downstairs, I could talk to Orrin who was apparently just standing there trying to sell his music. I’m sure he wanted to see me go off on Orrin for some free entertainment. It’s probably a good thing I was busy and I just told him I better not. If I had, I’m absolutely positive that It would have ended just like this post.
I hate liars. Bill Clinton lied about something that was between himself, Hillary and Monica. Orrin Hatch’s lies and deceitful tactics has severely damaged our constitution and has destroyed our ties with other countries. We’ve all seen Orrin lose his temper badly on national television many times. Many of those outbursts were FAKE. Without all that unopposed FAKE anger heard daily on shows like Limbaugh and Hannity against liberals, the republicans would have not taken power.
Our anger is REAL and our outrage is justified by the violent deaths and unjust imprisonment and torture of hundreds of thousands of innocent people, not sperm cells or stem cells.
Orrin was given a chance to have a civil conversation with a constituent and blew it with his first answer.
May 27th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Ken,
You disgust me with your blind obedience toward the pro-war GOP. The writer of this post got it correct, and the best you can do is turn the post into an attack on your own pro-war church. Given your tactic in this regard, I am led to believe that you know in your heart of hearts that the writer did, in fact, get it correct with his dialogue with the orrin, and your realization of this leads you to safe refuge where you carry the conversation to a different topic - nice dodge, Ken. Now wake up and smell the roses; that is, of course, if you yourself can sleep at night!
May 27th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Notice how deaths of US troops in Iraq have increased lately since the Democrats and people like yourselves have worked to ensure a US defeat? The enemy is encouraged by your actions and the events in Congress. Nephi, Larry, Troy, and people like you have blood on your hands. When a future Iraq War memorial is built I want you all to visit and know there are names that will be inscribed upon it because of your actions at this time. Sleep on that!
May 27th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Ken, I believe Bush himself called the increase in GI deaths. George is just correct, as usual.
May 27th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
I will sleep just fine, Ken, knowing that I did everything in my power to stop the pro-war types like you and your church from going to Iraq in the first place. Your pro-war orgy of the ill-informed was just too much for those of us having a more reasoned approach to the matter. It is you and your pro-war church and your cherished pro-war GOP that has blood on its hands, Ken, not the likes of me, Troy and Larry, and that blood ain’t going to wash off any where as readily as you might wish.
May 27th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Before the war started I had no problem with people who opposed the US going to war. That is when the debate was appropriate, but once we actually went to war the debate was over. The debate now should be how we can defeat the enemy so we can bring our people home.
May 27th, 2007 at 4:44 pm
If we had left Iraq the day after “Shock and Awe”, or any day after that, we would be better off today. This stupid “We’re there now” tactic used by the war mongers is just that, a tactic. If somebody came up to you in the line at the post office, pushed you out of the way and said “I’m here now”, what would you do Ken?
May 27th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Hah!! I love how the Bushies are now attempting to disown their responsibility for the Iraq war and throw it on the Dems for trying to do what should have been done long ago: leave Iraq. You own this war, Kenny boy, not us nutcakes with whom you so vehemently disagree, and the blood will remain on your hands. Good luck trying to convince yourself otherwise, so you may sleep well at night!
May 27th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Let me see if I have this straight. Party ‘A’ (pResident Bush) lies the nation into a war. Party ‘B’ (anyone inclined to disagree with the president for any number of legitimate reasons) reject this criminality. BUT, since the war has already consumed many, it is party ‘B’s’ responsibility for not having unified with party ‘A’. So much so that the troops actually placed in harms way by party ‘A’ are dying in greater numbers now after three years as resistance to our occupation increases.
Ken, you seem to be saying that the occupation and all the death and destruction we have caused is NOT the problem, but that the real cause of the continuing meat-grinder is that WE, your more realistic, progressive kinsmen and women, still have not yet come on board with the criminal in chief, even though he and his tried to set us up for two contrary scenarios:
This’ll be a cakewalk, six months max. And:
This’ll be a perpetual war, probably lasting 20 to even 100 years.
Even though EVERYBODY’S awash in blood and not likin’ it.
Even though, even though, even though…
I guess it’s time for another confession. I did it. I killed all those people with my doubt, my questions
and yes, even my snarky resistance. It just never seemed like the correct, moral approach to acquiring petroleum products. But, that’s just me. Sorry.
May 27th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
I am not sure I agree with the approach taken. If I saw Hatch in public I doubt I would do this, there isn’t much to be gained. But then Ken Bingham writes this BS and I am ready to go.
Ken - you and your kind are to blame for letting our soldiers twist in the wind in Iraq. You sit on your ass and don’t dare criticize this war; criticize war profiteering, criticize the lack of adequate body armor and training; criticize the lackluster medical care that our soldiers received when returning home; criticize endless deployments and stop-loss. None of that crosses your mind.
You are exactly what an unpatriotic American looks like so don’t come on here and tell us we are wrong for looking out for our soldiers. We think patriotism means more than slapping the magnet on the back of your vehicle. Sorry we don’t sit idly by and just hope that the best is done for our fighting men and women, we expect and will criticize when it doesn’t happen.
So slap another magnet on your vehicle and shut the fuck up while we do the real work of looking out for our soldiers.
May 27th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Troy,
You are the model of a brave patriotic American - salt of the earth minuteman grounded in the fundamentals of democracy and government for the people and by the people.
Hatch is not about the people. The second he said he knew more than you, he betrayed the spirit of America.
You, Troy, are a hero.
May 27th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Nephi- Please don’t lump all mormons into the “pro-war type” category. It’s inaccurate and ignorant.
May 27th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
Woah Ken Bignham,
Are you really sure you want to stand by the statement that more Americans soldiers are dying “since the Democrats and people like yourselves have worked to ensure a US defeat?”
How can you look yourself in the mirror and not shrivel in disgust (not at your face, for you are a beautiful cherubic man) but for the indefensible desperate and trivial pathetic argument?
Marshall has handed you your ass on a platter.
I suggest you consider some semblance of humility and admit the mistakes that have been made under false pretense and deception, and which YOU have stood behind, and then ask for our support rather than embarrassing yourself and me (as your friend and defender) with such despicable accusations.
Please Ken, show some humility. Your boys have fucked up REAL BAD and you know it.
Love Cliff
May 27th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
Allie is absolutely right. Not all Mormons are pro-war. My parents are active Mormons and they are adamantly opposed to Bush and this war. And they taught me to stand by principles, not personalities. So despite my heritage, I still believe it’s important to take a stand. And sadly, as Al Gore argues in his new book, reason and rationality are under assault in our country. It’s impossible for rabid conservatives to listen to sound discourse — so we are left with with no recourse but outrage. But not to worry, Ken’s people are rappidly (thank god) becoming a minority voice. They’ve had their day, botched it up — and now it’s our turn.
May 27th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
You are correct, Allie, and I apologize for suggesting that all Mormons (and their leaders) are as pro-war as Ken Bingham. Sometimes the 90% of Mormons who are like Ken just get the better of me.
BTW, I have had revenge cookies and they are great!
May 27th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
Allie.
I appreciate your taking note of the fact that some Mormons do not support the war. In reviewing your comments, I must point out that you have never taken such a stand.
Would it be fair to say that most Mormons who do not support the war, are pretty shy about it?
May 27th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
I don’t know. Maybe I should be more vocal…
And Nephi- I really hope it isn’t 90% (yikes).
May 27th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Oh look
I have posted on the war
I forgot (really).
May 27th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
It sincerely saddens me that so frequently these discussions become about religion rather than the point at hand. I believe that the responsibility of a true patriot is to question her leaders. If you find what they are doing to be reprehensible, one must act. This country desperately needs a few Friedrich Bonhoeffer’s. Alas, we would all rather sit idly and blame another ideology or religion, or a political party. This country and its direction is my responsibility and your responsibility, of course the Nazi’s killed Bonhoeffer. On second thought I’ll just sit around and whine. . . Would you please pass the Cheetos?
May 27th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
It’s been very interesting reading all of this. I interviewed Rocky last week and asked him, if in light of his “debate” with Hannity and my rant at Hatch, if civil discourse might still survive in America. He is more confidant than I. It is admirable that people like Ken actually dare to visit a liberal blog. The fact that Ken would read my post at all is admirable. That he hated the content is cool by me. I think it’s great that Mormons read this blog. My father is an active Mormon and life-long Democrat. I am a returned missionary who has watched the Church of my birth target and attack minority populations — teaching racist doctrine, undermining the ERA, organizing and preaching untruths about gays. And the Church can preach and teach whatever vile doctrines they desire…but when they move their muscle into the political realm to limit the civil liberties of an entire populaton of people, then they are going to have a fight. And I will get in their face and defend my liberty. I remain convinced that justice and freedom are on our side — and Bush, Hatch and their patriarchal empire of war and aggression will come tumbling down. It’s spectacular watching them self-destruct.
May 28th, 2007 at 1:52 am
Troy, Cliff, and everyone else.
This post really pushed my button, and as you can tell by the responses I pushed a few buttons myself. I don’t apologize for my beliefs but I do apologize for the tone of my comments.
May 28th, 2007 at 8:03 am
Allie,
Until, you pointed it out, it hadn’t really occurred to me it isn’t black and white - for or against the war.
As you said to Nephi, ‘please don’t lump all mormons into the “pro-war type‒.
I took that to mean you are against the war. Now I see you meant just what you said, you are just not “pro-war”, you are just “angry” about it. I guess I’m more black and white about lying and murder, war crimes, needless death of innocent women and children, elderly, and generations of emasculated men who will spend their adult lives looking for vengeance against Americans.
I was brought in Washington DC. Much of my family served in government. Where I come from one is judged also historically by the position they took at the time, by how vocal they were when it was not so popular. And if you were wrong, you suffered the consequences.
I guess, where I come from, its not good enough to be angry in a case like this. People are dying and you are either fighting to stop it or you are responsible letting it happen. That to me is the definition of a real American.
I read your blog with great interest. I see much of myself in it - a less liberated version of myself. (keep in mind, this is about me, not you). You seem to have an sensitivity of injustice and inequality that you take with a sense of humor.
But doesn’t it stab you a little bit?
You seem to have a fascination with liberal thought and expression, but you quote others and reserve your own words for family talk and recipes.
You are the classic Modern American Mormon dichotomy.
I hope you stick around.
Lynette
May 28th, 2007 at 8:12 am
Ken,
I’m glad this pushed your buttons. Hatch pushes my buttons. I become furious when the deaths — the violent, brutal, awful deaths of innocent people (Iraqi and American alike) are treated with mere platitudes and catch-phrases. How can anyone justify a foreign policy that has led to the murder of tens of thousands of people? It makes no sense. “they hate us for our freedoms” “they are plotting to destroy us” Ken, can you give me a good, realistic answer for WHY they hate us? What do you think motivates and inspires hatred toward America? A republican candidate, Ron Paul, recently argued that “they” hate us because we meddle in Middle East affairs — the CIA term being “blowback”. Can you hold room for the possibility that maybe our actions over the past 50 years could be a reason why they hate us? And maybe if started from there we could develop a wiser, safer foreign policy?
May 28th, 2007 at 8:28 am
Ken,
Ditto the kudos to you for sticking around. I think the disconnect is belief vs reason. You don’t need to apologize for rational premises and conclusions. They are either right or wrong.
But when you find yourself having to defend on-the-ground actions and policies based upon beliefs, you get stuck.
The idea of liberty is very much about leaving your beliefs out of places that affect me and others.
And you can’t call *everything* you can’t defend a belief. For example, you say you think or believe that the dems are responsible for increased American deaths, and you can say you believe the terrorists want to come to the US and take aways our freedoms, and you can say you believe that homosexuality is a sin against God and nature. But you cannot call them all beliefs in the same way.
See what I’m sayin?
I think a lot about you. I think you are loyal to the conservative cause because it is so strongly identified with the church. But somewhere along the way, the conservative cause - social conservativism - got all mixed up in every aspect of Bush political policy which turned out to be unsupportable.
And suddenly, the test of your religious conviction became a function of your ability to defend Bush.
I don’t know. Its all messed up.
May 29th, 2007 at 1:46 am
What the hell?
“Thousands of terrorists are in America plotting our destruction.â€
So go get them! Please! Scoot, scoot!
Hey, here’s a start! Take that soldier you were going to send to Iraq and let him stay home. Lose your fucking homophobia and ask that gay soldier who speaks fluent Arabic if he’ll help teach others how to speak the language. Use these people to create an intelligence network to infiltrate these “thousands of terrorists.“
Hey, I’m not so naïve to think this is a perfect solution. But I’m not a stupid pussy who thinks obliterating people who had and have nothing to do with these “thousands of terrorists in America†is anywhere near to a solution.
“Hatch insisted that Al Qaeda was operating there prior to 911.â€
Until now, I thought Cheney was the only robot despicable enough to continue parroting this mind-numbing screed. Having him so far away in Washington, D.C., however, kept me “clean.“ in a way I didn’t realize.
With Hatch, having that insipid and disgusting rhetoric so close to home makes me feel like I’ve been slimed, hence his new nickname, “Slimer,“ Hey, it matches his ideology and his weird-shaped hegemony.
And yes, Allie, Utah is approximately 90 percent behind the president. And while I’m sorry to offend those with Mormon sensibilities, I’m also sick to death of those with Mormon sensibilities. I’ve lived with them all of my life and, and as is obviously obvious in this post, their oblivious responsibility for their support of this war infuriates me.
Is this a Utah thing? Because the only references I see a Utahan use are: Limbaugh, 2) Glen Beck (he’s a Mormon ya’ know) and 3) the prophet.
Perhaps Guiliani will loan Hatch his booklist when he’s through, especially the 9/11 Report that states, unequivocally, that Al Qaeda was NOT in Iraq prior to 9/11.
In fact, I’d even chip in and send a copy of the Commission Report to the prophet, letting him know Al Qaeda was not in Iraq prior to 9/11. Maybe then he’d let Hatch know, then Glen Beck and then, who knows? Maybe that’d get the fucking ball rolling, because honest to god, I THOUGHT EVERY ONE KNEW THIS ALREADY!
“Ritter is full of crap.â€
Ritter is one of the most unsung, courageous men in the buildup to this war. He spoke up loudly and clearly that there were no WMDs in Iraq, and that the inspections WERE working. I vividly remember watching him speak firmly when everyone treated him as if he were a traitor! As Bill Maher keeps saying, everyone we listened to got everything wrong! If only we had listened to Ritter. He tried.
“We haven’t killed them…they are killing each other.â€
Are these people blind? Maybe parallel universes is not a theory, but a fact, and I live on a different universe than Hatch. Does he seriously not see how what HE has done has caused this horrific insanity to explode? Does he just shut his eyes to the gore, the horror, the terror, the death, oh my god, the death?
“Saddam had bio-chemical weapons.â€
That were old and never capable of causing any harm to us! To the U.S. us! Or to anyone else!
“You have your information wrong…â€
I’m a Senator of the United States! I know things you don’t know! I’m a Senator of the United States. How dare you question me? I’m a Slimer of the United States. I . . . .
May 29th, 2007 at 9:32 am
wow Jaynee — you are as fired up as I was! I hope you have the opportunity of talking to Hatch face to face too! Just one comment though — speaking from my own perspective as a gay man — I do NOT want Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell repealed. I do not want my people serving in this military under the direction of Bush. I don’t want queer people to be the footsoldiers of imperial demagogues — and I don’t want my people dying for oil and American Empire. I don’t want any American dying for these goals. My motto is always, Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, Don’t Kill.
May 29th, 2007 at 9:49 am
Lynette- I guess I view being angry about the war to mean the same thing as being against it. Your insights certainly give me something to think about…
Jayne Doe- as for “mormon sensibilities”… I think it’s a case of finding what you are looking for. The majority of mormon people I know (even the republican ones) are frustrated with our president and his war.
It is frustrating for me that so many issues become an us vs. them in Utah, with mormons on one side and everyone else on the other. It shouldn’t be that way. I guess it’s a part of any society with such a dense population of one religion, but I think all of us need to try a little harder to avoid falling into that trap.
May 29th, 2007 at 10:07 am
Allie,
The folks you mention became “frustrated” several years too late. Many of us nutcakes, on the other hand, became frustrated early on with the sheer glee shown by the majority of mormon folks you know when bush invaded Iraq. I think those current mormons frustrated by the situation in Iraq have boatloads of atoning to do!
May 29th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Nephi-
Shouldn’t we be glad that people who were previously fooled by GW are realizing the error of their ways?
No one is perfect, but better late than never.
Allie (a proud nutcake)
May 29th, 2007 at 11:01 am
Troy,
I was talking specifically about a member of the military who spoke fluent Arabic. He was kicked out of the military when it was discovered he was gay. It was my impresion he wanted to return to the military if allowed.
I would never want any person, gay, straight, trans, male, female, white, black, purple, etc., to ever have to be in the military if he/she doesn’t want to.
Jaynee
May 29th, 2007 at 11:34 am
Allie,
You wrote:
“Jayne Doe- as for “mormon sensibilitiesâ€â€¦ I think it’s a case of finding what you are looking for.
Alas, for me, it’s a case of finding who I am looking for, because my circumstances are such that I live with members of my family and they are all ultra conservative Mormons. They all revere Bush and Cheney, and started crying when they heard Glen Beck’s conversion story.
I believe what you say about the Mormons in your life. But it does not reflect the Mormons in my life, and living in Utah as I do, I have a hard time believing it reflects others, who live in Utah as well. Perhaps, however, I am wrong.
I only know that I am surrounded by a blankness when I try to discuss this president’s atrocities with my family. It is a despondent place to be becaus there is proof after proof after proof after proof after proof after proof after . . . .and no one will even give me a courtesy ear. Yet my Mormon family will gladly spend hours talking, within my earshot, about how Bush is just a Mormon once removed.
I ‘m afriad to look behind the curtain.
Jaynee
May 29th, 2007 at 11:47 am
Jaynee-
I can understand. I do have one (maybe two) family members who are similar to yours. Thankfully most of them are sensible. :)
My brother-in-law said that he thought president bush was acting “almost prophet-like”. Which is funny and sad and a little scary all at once. He’s not from Utah though.
It seems like there are a lot of mormons who get their politics and their religion confused and think that there is “one true” political party that they have to adhere to and anything that deviates from that is apostasy.
I really wanted to send my brother-in-law a post that I read on A Liberal Mormon. It’s the Lips Vs. Heart post. Here’s a link, unfortunately I don’t think my brother-in-law would read anything off of a blog titled “A Liberal Mormon”.
I’m sorry that you have had the experience you have had living in Utah. It shouldn’t be that way.
May 29th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
If these idiots keep it up, they will have thousands of “insurgents” eager to kick their ass…after all, it was the crown itself that coined the term “insurgents” to describe the founders of this Nation.
It would be wonderful to expel all those people that have trashed their Oaths to the Constitution, like any tory in 1789, and not just the “leaders” but the rest of the asses that support them. #@&*$ TRAITORS!!
It would be nice, but who would take them? They’re ours, let’s start imprisoning them and have them crack rocks in the Utah SUN!! How about chained tamarisk cutting crews for our government criminals? It would be good for the “environment” top reestablish the indigenous flora…just like reestablishing the original intent of the Laws of our Constitution…..looks like it will have to come to that, if we are ever to reclaim ourselves.
dems that have voted with bush? I wouldn’t object to reestablishment of the pillory for them, or “ducking” (dunking) criminals of the State either. Almost as good as water-boarding.
May 29th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Allie; If Utah was flat and rainy, would you live there? The only thing Utah seemingly has going for it is what God done created, the rest of mans creations are seemingly a farce there.
I have lived in Utah, and it is an extremist state, both on the right AND the left, and as such of NO CONSEQUENCE to what must be done to rectify this Nation.
May 29th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Troy –
Way to go. I now wish that I had done differently — I saw Hatch at the downtown Smith’s Marketplace this past weekend. I debated about whether or not I should say something to him. I did have my three year old in the shopping cart, but the reason I didn’t approach is the same reason you stated — he sincerely believes the lies that he’s told himself.
AFter years of writing letter after letter and getting the condescending “I know better than you do” tone (never mind that I knew that Iraq didn’t have WMDs long before the Iraq war started, and he apparently didn’t), I’ve come to the conclusion that there are some old dogs that you can’t simply teach new tricks to — and an open mind is way too new a trick for a way too old dog like Hatch.
But after reading your account, I wish I had approached him. Maybe if enough of us did that on a consistent basis, it might just plant a seed of doubt that might just grow.
Thank you for sticking up for what’s right, Troy.
May 29th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
JKK,
You should have sent your three-year old over to kick the fucker in the shin and then punch him in the balls (oops! … Hatch has no balls).
May 29th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Neph–
It’s hard to teach my child to be peaceful (and unneoconlike) if I tell her to kick the f****r in the balls. I don’t think she knows what balls are anyway . . .
I do appreciate you sentiment, though.
May 29th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
It does make for a rather humorous visual - i.e., a three year old giving the orrin a solid shot to the groin in the aisle of a grocery store.
May 29th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
Hi Allie,
Thank you for the link. It reminded me of a “discussion” I had with my mother when Cheney came to BYU. I told her I couldn’t believe a Christian school would ask him to speak at its commencement. She was shocked at my assertion that I did not believe him to be a Christian.
It didn’t help when I also told her I believe he is directly responsible for the obliteration of hundreds of thousands of innocents and that he is the personifcation of evil. That left her sputtering.
I wish I could get her to read that essay, but she would dismiss it out of hand, especially if it came for the “evil apostate.”
Ah, but I am hard on my little hive. They do love me, and I do love them. The way I write, that doesn’t come across. Resentment, yes. Love, yes too.
Jaynee
May 29th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
Thank you Troy for your post. And good for you.
Troy, you say, “But I do believe the time for polite discourse has passed. ”
Have you ever thought of civil disobedience?
I keep hearing more and more folks say they’re down with strategies like that.
It’s time - and probably long past time.
Deanna
May 30th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Deanna, my one big shot at civil disobedience came last year when I swarmed the capital with “Why Is Chris Buttars Obsessed with Gay Sex?” newspapers. I also had an automated computer calling all of the legislators throughout the day asking the same question. I was thrown out — but not after I had Gayle Ruzicka hopping mad. She sent all of her Eaglets out to retrieve any papers she could find. The capital changed laws after that. No more flyers on cars. But it’s a good question, isn’t it? Why IS Chris Buttars so obsessed with gay sex? hmmmnnn? If I were to do civil disobedience in the future it would have to be absolutely brilliant, spectacular and attract gobs of media attention.
May 30th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
Troy,
Do you have a website that deals specifically with this issue?
I know a man who drew a sign of his website and then raised it behind the window of the Channel 2 news broadcast while it was on air. He got thousands of hits.
Many thought he was a whacko. Others were extremely receptive.
I’m not sure it meets the exact definition of “civil disobedience.” But I wonder if our foe doesn’t call for making up the rules as we go along. That pains me to say it, as that has been their MO for six years now. I just have this feeling that we don’t have time for “pure” civil disobedience. Ah . . . I’m rambling.
So, do you have a website?
Jaynee
P.S. I’m not advocating for the content of the site I mentioned.