Misty:

You forgot about the time, not too long ago when a basketball team came to Utah and some of it’s members had sex with underage girls. That story disappeared instantly and every time I bring it up somewhere, nobody remembers. But yesterday at work I brought it up and a coworker actually knew the name of the team, (which I can’t remember right now.)

No wonder the congressmen are so jealous of sports figures and feel they have to right to steal us blind. Hopefully, Mr. Craig has enough money and power to get himself out of any prosecution, (it will), but I’m afraid his “wide stance” defense will follow him to his grave.

Although I left many years ago, I am willing to admit I am a native of Idaho. Most of my family still lives there. A quarter century after those idiot voters turned Frank Church out office I can only hope they will finally see the error of their ways. But I’m not really optomistic that will happen.

Glendon, I have to disagree. Mark Foley is a gay man, I’m sure. But I don’t think that being gay would drive you to molesting a child, even a “young teen”. It’s a perverted desire to dominate someone you are in a position of authority over, who is helpless, and/or whatever twisted things go through a person’s mind that they want to have sex with a child.

While he may have chosen girls if he had been straight, I think you do a disservice to the gay community to say that Mark Foley molested those boys because he was gay. To me, that’s the same argument the “Christian Right” uses to say that being gay is immoral and wrong.

Being gey is not the same as being perverted. Foley and the other A class politicians are more the perverted variety, and Republican, of course. It’s a surprizingly long list, if you ever see it. Wow.

So gore coming from oil money and his insane mansion and giant energy bills makes him a hypocrite. Oops forgot the mention the jet. What is gores carbon footprint? Let’s just start calling him Sasquatch. Thanks Glendon.

Maybe that piece of paper on the bathroom floor craig was trying to save was just the Constitution. It is of course invisible these days, which is why the cop couldn’t see it.

No Larry, this is politics, rack your brain on how to spin it. How about as a ex veep he has no choice? That would indict us entirely as useless, as a Country, and a glaring truth, that no matter what, we can’t get out of our own way. It could help gore get out responsibility, help him get elected, but will in no way fly with the rest of the modern world that can see right through this hypocrite.

My point is gore is a hypocrite, and we can’t expect any virtue from him. He talks a good game, but that’s about all. If the election was stolen, he laid down for it, as did we all. By rights he is gutless, and is now riding around in his plane talking nonsense, while the world burns its fires.

The reason he accepted it? Really, without much complaint? He’s either in on the scam, or simply afraid of those running the scam. Certainly no one to follow.

As for the rest, the scrap heap of history is seemingly in view. The control of our lives, economy and military by fascism won’t be talked away.

Hey listen, it has been a long standing practise to marry a woman and be gay for thousands of years. After all, you can’t bear a child out of your ass. The women are married as a means to have children with your genetics. It was necessary in ancient Greece, where man boy love was believed by some to be the highest form of love. It is of course short changing women. With surrogates and all the rest of the technology this won’t be an issue for much longer. The marriage to a woman and the continuance of a gay lifestyle without a wifes consent or knowledge, is one of the most selfish acts, I can imagine.

So what is the verdict on those people that were gay and are no longer, are they confused?

In Europe medical therapies have successfully made gay men straight with hormones. In an open society you have that choice, and in Europe gay men that don’t wish to be gay, can seek and get successful treatment.

Have they betrayed themselves? Is it because society doesn’t accept them? Not in Europe, it is simply they aren’t comfortable being gay. Sex is a physical act, and all physical acts besides bodily functions, are a choice. What do you think being a abstinent monk is all about?

So in the same way a person wishes to get gender reassignment, they can also get treatment for orientation reassignment. The idea that one is “born gay” is rather fascist, and is almost a religious notion itself, that you should, as well as society, accept what you have been born to be in the opinion of those that believe people are born gay. This is very much also a nature vs. nurture argument, as there is ample evidence that upbringing and family, societal conditions can lead to people becoming gay. To think otherwise is to deny open reality of many peoples experience. There are plenty of people that thought they were gay, conducted themselves as gay, then quit, and became straight. I know them. Anecdotal? Ok. To each their own beliefs.

Belief in a person being “born gay” is however the logical outcome in reaction, to puritan based Americas’ obsession with sex.

Whatever, that is certainly NOT scientifically determined..yet. There is no gay gene. A lot like the promotion of human induced global warming, we don’t KNOW. The data is scanty. The entire assumptions are derived from political motivation which betrays ignorance. Remember you are a POLI SCI MAJOR!

The born gay concept, unfounded as it is, and vehemently held by you, drives youe politics, which causes you to be prejudiced against those who disagree. This is intolerance, and put into law and politics, primary fascism.

/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/325979.stm There is no gay gene, for Cris’sakes STOP promoting what you wish, and start dealing with the reality.

Insisting on people being born gay is the same as believing in some 1400 century concept of predestination based on gods wishes. It is bullshit, and since you have made it personal Cliff, most of what you promote is bullshit, which is WHY, you have the difficulties dealing with people such as myself. As for killing the likes of us, good luck with that, we believe in arming ourselves, for the very reason you couldn’t help putting in print. You are a fascist, as I have often told you. I’m still alive.

Your “facts” don’t exist!!! It is actually FUNNY!

Parades, warm breezes, light social engagements…it is sad such a word is now associated with wide eyed bung-holery

Since they have no proper birth control, hetero coupling in Africa is primarily anal, unless the goal is pregnancy. Think there is relation to this proclivity and the highest incidence of AIDS in the world per crapita? There is so much opportunity for tissue tearing and bleeding, joined with the bacteria, and flora found in the bowel, that it is small wonder it leads to pathologies. Sure sounds like fun, huh?

You paid huh, I doubt it. I guess you didn’t link to the BBC article. There is no gene for it fool. If you took sciences Cliff it sure doesn’t show. You are prone to believing the worst of junk science.

the evergreen society, 60 minutes, wooo real titans…hahhah

Gender is determined by the male, depending on the chromosome contributed Cliff. This very much something you are “born” with. Your sex is determined by actual biological events at the time of your conception. This is absolutely scientific FACT by now, whereas what YOU BELIEVE IS NOT! Not saying that it might someday be, but for now it isn’t. Your posturing for political/social reasons is admirable, but you sort of look like a person playing Twister after the 10th spin.

Sure you took all that science huh? Stop looking foolish.

Yeah, I know that hormones determine sex. Animals display “gay” behavior in the context of harem male dominance. As you are fixated on the male aspect of homosexuality, you will discover that in the wild there no gay bitches. They all want the bone. What the hell can you do if you are male and not dominant? Most males use their hand in anticipation of future hopes. The rest fuck each other, that is entirely described by behavioral dynamics of this fact.

So if being gay is not genetic, then it is in fact, a choice, not that there is anything wrong with that.

See, I know what you studied in college, and have had extensive conversations with you, and am amazed that you claim any knowledge of “science”, as in discussion you were seemingly woefully ignorant.

What zionist histrionics of the ME would you like me to accept? Done heard it from sources more credible, though invalid, as you. I get ot say whatever I want, get usde to it. Many people agree, deal with that. More shall soon. Live with that, as there is NOTHING for it. Cheers.

Gender, which is your sex.

The behavior exhibited by these animals occurs in the context of packs, and male, and female dominance displays. In female harems, or in stag male groups, the inability to be allowed to breed surely can lead to some queer behavior. All manner of behavior in our own species can be attributed to sexual frustration. Everyone is gay to some extent as humans, as we all masturbate. Which is sex with someone of your own gender. You are born with that perhaps, but any sexual proclivities can be denied by humans. Like celibate monks, so you aren’t born with that.

I suggest that behavior defines your orientation, and that is changeable and chooseable. As I have said before gays that quit and then “breed” are not gay despite the behavior, they are gay while doing it, and het when they quit, or celibate.

Why do you attempt to put human sexuality into a box? I don’t think you can. We are an adaptable species, and that covers sexual behavior too.

Are the queer acting animals gay? I dunno, why don’t you ask them? Despite any of these apparent behaviors, given the opportunity, and position in the herd/pack, all females will be bred, all males will breed with females, should cunning or dominance permit it. In the end sexual behavior is about procreation and breeding. The rest is just something to do until that time.

Are men in prison for life or long terms gay when they succumb to rape or consensual sex with the only available partners? Or are they just getting what they can, until better partners they prefer show up? Consider the animal behavior in that light. Animals that aren’t dominant often aren’t allowed to breed,(though the males that distract alphas and breed through cunning, are an interesting lot), leading to the behaviors. Like prison.

I frankly don’t care what anyone does, and they have the right to conduct themselves as they wish consensually, and get the modicum of allowances anyone else does with regard to marrying, etc. Arguing about why humans are gay, by using “science” is really pointless, and a sign of the insecurity about the rights people should have. It is not a scientific issue, except to those with such interest, it is really a social one, and like most social “science” it isn’t hard and fast, and is not meant to be.

As people once thought “vapors” made you sick, using available science of the time, so too do we now speculate about animal behavior and our own as having some rigid calculus to define it. I’m content to say, who knows why? As we do not know.

I have empathy for those that are convinced they are born gay, do what you want, you will get no persecution from me, if anything I will support them, and defend against their detractors. Whatever cockeyed reason anyone wants to give about their consensual activities is fine with me.

Once again Ad hominem statements, no addressing any points you cannot defend or agree. Who’s the bigot? Of course with this tack you automatically lose any argument. It is very typical. Not interesting either.

Your views are opinion, and that’s ok. I was born German and suffered discrimination for that, nothing to be done, that IS absolutely a condition I was born with. Nobody cares about others problems until they cry from the roof top, which the gay community well does, so now we know. Many with other problems can’t. That said I inhibit nor impinge anyones lifestyle, but I don’t have to fit in the correct box that you utilize to judge others.

If anyone is bigoted Cliff it is you. You favor all manner of attitudes over others, and your faux liberalism is, you are right, very boring. I’m pretty happy these days, Certainly not concerned with this really, it just a semantic exercise for me. For you, as I know you, your “beliefs” are pretty phony.

You don’t believe in God Cliff, so don’t utilize others beliefs in vain to pretend that you care.

So now I ‘aint myself? There’s no winning, so I don’t bother anymore. I could write in support of many of the ideas here, but what fun would be?

The irony Cav, (wowooo,, is that your name?), is that I agree with many of the politics here, but judge no one for their thoughts, that is cliffords’ department.

The ability to write and compose thoughts, defend the indefensible, logically, and as you wrote, pointedly, is the benefit of classical education. It continues when you can think for yourself using the resources you have, these gifts combined with learned knowledge powers the better half of the human race to success. The rest are judging and taking adversarial poses they claim to believe in. Who knows what they really believe in? The mark is in what they DO!I have no agenda. My bone with cliff(small c) is that he is judgmental of morality of those people that disagree with him. It is in my view small minded.

So, if I have be unpopular to end the glad handing show this site has a tendency toward, then so be it. It’s fun, and I am reasonably certain I give a look most people don’t cast their brains upon. No hubris, I am doing this for sheer SPORT! Maybe I’ll go back to school, become an attorney. Or maybe I’ll get banned again.

Here’s mud in yer eyes ya’all!

I actually think you’re radically and refreshingly empathetic. Glad to have you around.