Cliff LyonYesterday, Romney Became a Punk
In his lousy speech yesterday, Mitt Romney said of people like me, “It is as if they’re intent on establishing a new religion in America – the religion of secularism. They’re wrong,”
He was talking about people who would exclude religion from public institutions and apparently, create their own religion.
Ignoring the stupidity of that statement for a moment…
Problem is, many people who support the 1st amendment, ARE religious. So one can only interpret this tactic as establishing a litmus test among believers.
What about atheist? Today we learn, Romney Spokesman Won’t Say If Atheists Have Place In America.
Well, I’m an atheist, and will hold my morality up against ANYONE’S. The idea that atheists have no moral foundation is not only imbecilic and insulting, it is arrogant, hypocritical and feels like an act of violence.
If Mr. Romney feels so strongly about his religiously derived morality, I would challenge him to a higher test of morality.
Mr. Romney, if you woke up tomorrow morning and discovered the BOM is not true, and there is no God, would you live your life any differently?
I have to think Romney knows right from wrong without having to be told by other white men (and zero women) who claim to speak for God. If thats not the case, he’s not only unfit to be president, he is unfit to be a father and represents a general danger to society.
We need only look around the republican party to find out if religious affiliation and practice have any correlation to moral behavior.
If Mitt Romney thinks I am any less moral (as an atheist) than his Bishop, Stake president, or any of the active Mormons in our prisons, he should shove it up his ass.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
Well put. I argue that atheists and agnostics, like myself, engage in a higher order of ethics. With out a deity, one does the right thing not for a reward (heaven) or fear of a punishment (hell), right action is chosen because it is the right thing to do. I find it hard to think of people being moral when their actions are derived from a fear of a god.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Hey; you don’t have to look at the “enemy” to see hypocrisy Cliff. Let’s hope Bernie is innocent, if he is, then we know that the crocs have many teeth for special uses. So do the non-religious, and those that pray to the alter of inalienable self defense. In all ways, by all means.
Hunt the Crocs to extinction, and do it with GUSTO!
Sidenote: In the argument of what the 2nd amendment means, it is an interesting FACT, that colonial weapons, GUNS, muskets, were superior to the Brown Bess that armed the minions of the filthy crown. The colonial weapon was rifled, which made for a gun that was much more accurate, powerful, and of twice the range for destruction.
Oh, the crownies, OFFICERS ESPECIALLY, feared the American Sniper, the crown toadies being a primary target in battle.
The Brown Bess was a smooth bore musket, no match for Kentucky Rifle. It was then expressly frowned upon to have these weapons by the filthy crown. They were the assault rifles of the day. So much the better for crownie croc hunting. We have had better than the crocs since DAY ONE! Let’s keep it that way for the non felonious.
The disadvantage of the Rifled musket was speed of reloading, and the curious absence of a bayonet of the colonial arm, which is how most crownies killed their victims, after over running them in battle, and stabbing them to death. Later, this terror weapon was added to the rifled musket, and it is no doubt effective, as was the cutlass, knives, and swords for hand to hand combat.
This disadvantage, brought about the Patriot notion of “gun control”, the ability to hit ones target first time, and put it DOWN!
So when the time came to ensconce the Right to Bear Arms in the Constitution, the right was non specific, and ambiguous, purposely so, to enable future Americans to kill crocs with whatever their imaginative minds and crafty skills could come up with.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Cliff.
What you fail to realize is that you are born with the gift of your morality from the one who created you your father in heaven. Living by the precepts of the Gospel make it easier for you to remember your morality and live up to the gift you were given. It doesn’t matter if you believe in god or not. He gives you a knowledge of right and wrong and he gives you your free agency. Just because you have rationalized god out of existance to ease your troubled conscience does not mean that he takes away your knowledge of right vs wrong good vs evil. Who do you give thanks to for all that you are blessed with in this life? Yourself? That is the height of arrogance. You will never find true joy in this life if you can’t make god a part of it. Why do you think that so many liberals are so miserable and unhappy. Why do you think that their religion is that of Global Warming? They have to find something to believe in otherwise there very existance is a waste.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
eric,
That’s a fairly typical, arrogant, self-satisfying and sanctimonious response from someone who clearly has little understanding of atheism or atheists.
December 7th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
I am sorry that the truth hurts
December 7th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
LOL. Your truth is highly subjective.
December 7th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
BTW, eric, you don’t sound like a very happy person. What has “God” done to make you so angry about atheists not sharing your “truth”? ;)
December 7th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
I am generally very happy. I do admit however that it disturbs me when my religion is mis-represented and denegrated. I am not living up to the tenets of my religion by engaging in this contentious speak. I apologize if I have offended you. Sometimes it just feels good to fight back and I should not have. The religious people of this country have been taking it on the chin for the last 25 years and I guess I have just grown tired of it. I was out of line with some of my comments and I ask for your forgiveness. I will ask my heavenly father for forgiveness when I get on my knees tonight.
I do believe that god has given every man and woman his knowledge of right and wrong and his free agency. I should have left it at that . I guess I got worked up when I saw the language that Cliff used to address a very honorable man.
My apologies
December 7th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
I’m not sure if I should believe you or not eric, but since I have nothing else to go on but this short exchange, you get the benefit of the doubt . . . apology accepted.
Now, just don’t go telling us atheists what we think, what we feel and that we can’t possibly be happy unless we accept your truths as our own and you and I will be just fine. :)
December 7th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
Agreed. It would be nice if those of us that do have certain beliefs were not ridiculed all of the time as well. Thanks
December 7th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Oh, and eric, maybe you should look at the genesis of Cliff’s language and try to understand that he probably feels just as attacked by Romney when the “honorable man” fails to acknowledge the millions of non-believers as you did when Cliff shot back.
It’s pretty funny that you complain about religious people “taking it on the chin” for the last 25 years; atheists have had that problem for millennia. ;) The “religious people” of this country are doing just fine.
December 7th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Don,
I agree with everything that Romney said in his speech. But of course I do because I am a believer. I took from the speech the truth about what seperation of church and state really means. It does not mean ,at least in my opinion and the opinion of most of the founders of our great country , that we don’t acknowledge a creator in the public and government discourse . It just means that there is not to be a state religion. I don’t believe Govenor Romney meant to offend anyone by making that statement. Our beliefs don’t exist to offend anyone they are just our beliefs. It offends me that many non-believers think that believers are deluted and crazy. Don’t I have as much right to my beliefs as you do to yours? Does the minority get to disenfranchise the majority at all costs? The left often claims a monopoly on tolerance and enlightenment but from my perspective it is only for those that agree with them. I think that if Cliff took an HONEST look at Mitt Romney the person and evaluated his life then he would agree that Mitt Romney is an honorable person. I think that Cliff has a prejudice against people of faith and projects on to them steroetypes of being judgemental, and non-tolerant. Mitt Romney would be the first to get off the couch and help his neighbor if in trouble regardless of there creed or beliefs. Would Cliff do the same for a person of faith that he apparently has dis-dain for? He may he may not.
I do have a question about Athiesm. Why does it offend to have god mentioned in the public square?
Thanks
eric
December 7th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
Eric,
Do you have a shred of evidence that “so many liberals are so miserable and unhappy?”
Or do you take it on the same standard of evidence that my morality is derived from a God.
And while we’re at it, what is your evidence for a God?
Finally, I challenge you to show me where I degenerated your religion. You should be very sure of yourself before you make such statements.
False accusations coming from a believer do not bode well for one’s guiding entity.
December 7th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
I wonder if it isn’t the ‘certainty’ that is rediculous. However comforting, it doesn’t seem to be characteristic of an open mind with all the freewill, wonder, doubt and consequential decision-making that such minds are responsible for. Jasons point about simply doing the right thing goes here, but as Pres, Mitt will likely miss it, as has George. Mitt and George have it set up to blame ‘God’ for any misdeeds thier policies will engender. They will not be held responsible because actually “God did it!” Convenient for them and other ‘believers’.
Though agnostics and athiests may doubt the existence of God, there’s little doubt athiests and agnostics exist. So be it.
December 7th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
Exactly. I started from the premise: I am created in the likeness of God. I took my ability to reason and use logic as being in the likeness of God; consequentially, the gift is good as it separates us from animals. Using this gift I thought, if reason is a gift from God it should lead to a God. Why would an all good, all powerful, all knowing God give me this gift and not expect me to take it where it leads? Why give me reason, which leads to atheism, and than command I ignore it, but it’s ok to use reason for just about everything else in the world? I accepted the truth and it most certainly eased my troubled conscience, or rather I’d say my troubled consciousness.
Exactly again! I take full responsibility for my actions. If I’m blessed than it is because of my choices and thank you me. If I’m not blessed than I also take full responsibility for my choices. Accepting this was likely what you meant by easing my troubled conscious as I never felt better in my life.
December 7th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
For an interesting argument in opposition to Romney remark of liberty needing religion and vice versa take a look at this dissertation from Benjamin Franklin:
In whole Franklin puts forth a clear and elegant arguments. Even with the old style of writing it’s worth a read all the way through.
December 8th, 2007 at 1:56 am
Religious people are always passing laws which restrict people from doing things that really don’t hurt others, in fact they are proud of it and get elected because of it. Fact is, you can’t even run for office in this country unless you proclaim your faith in God and promise to “get tough on crime.” Yeah, crimes like smoking weeds to keep your food down so you can continue to live or, (Heaven Forbid), to just relax, look at the world around you and say, “WOW, this is neat!” Don’t knock it, it beats sitting around in church and listening to people say the same things you’ve heard a thousand times before. In fact our bishop used to fall asleep every week in front of the congregation.
If we are put here on this earth to be tested, which is a big Mormon belief, and your leaders are telling you how to live and forcing you to live that way through laws, then they are playing God and denying you free agency, and preventing your growth in that religion, aren’t they?
Ben Franklin knew what liberty was about. This new fake Christianity that the far right is forcing even the Mormons to live by has redefined the very word liberty to conform to the plans of people like Jerry Falwell Pat Robertson and James Dobson. Mormons should run as fast as they can from these phony bastards.
December 8th, 2007 at 8:39 am
Tread upon a Free People, properly armed, ye religious fanatics…, and if ye believe your life here on Earth is a test…
…be assured you will tested by those Free People,
so help me GOD!