Cliff LyonThe Mormon Bashing Begins. Thanks Mitt
As I predicted here, LDS doctrine will come under close scrutiny by the national media.
h/t HuffPost
A sane, if highly flawed, discussion of Mitt Romney’s “Faith In America” speech on the McLaughlin Group was cold-cocked into the realm of crazy-faced anger by guest panelist Lawrence O’Donnell this morning, who started off by criticizing Romney, but soon veered headlong into a radical assault on Mormonism.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:48 am
This is why my parents always had a rule: Do not discuss religion or politics.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:59 am
Personally, I cannot help but hope that the can of worms about to be opened hastens the end of the Mormon protestant cult operation. It’s time for these folks to understand they are NOT Christians, period!
December 10th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
What exactly are Christians then?
I always thought it had to do with a belief in Jesus Christ as a Saviour, and the Mormons do believe that. It is true they differ theologically from other XC denominations but I don’t believe that is enough to say they are not Christians.
Mitt was stuck between a rock and a hard place and had to expect discussion concerning the particulars of the faith to arrise. The “weirdness” of Mormon beliefs could become a fixture and no one want a weird President. But if you ask me, most religious beliefs are weird.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Good God already, WHO CARES??!!!
It’s like discussing what Luke or the Emperor, or Darth Vader meant in a Star Wars episode. The whole campaign is starting to look like a bunch geek trekkies at a Star Trek convention, some in their underwear.
Sorry, couldn’t help myself.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
“What exactly are Christians then?”
Answer: Folks who believe in Jesus Christ. Mormons believe in some entity named Jesus Christ, but it is not the same Jesus in whom Christians believe.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
Hi Cliff,
Off course, you are right. The Mormon Church will have the crap kicked out of them. And others, as your sound bite revealed, will defend the Mormon Church or, more accurately, Mitt’s right to believe and run for president simultaneously, just more accurately, simply recite the constitutional provision that there be no religious test to run for political office in the United Stataes.
My position: that it’s “win win” for the Mormon Church still stands, and is elevated, in my opinion. The Mormons get world-class publicity without paying more millions of tithing donations for yet more publicity. And the only real advantage to the Mormon Church from my perspective: the very true criticisms leveled by your talking head on your sound bite, and thousands like it, may just help the Mormon Church get into the 20th century before the 21st century ends.
your pal, ed firmage
December 10th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Well I’d say it’s the same person, it might be a different perspective. The Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Mormons, etc all have different perspectives of this man. How can any single one be said to be correct?
December 10th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Bad press is better than, no press.
J, What if they all wrong? The discussion has no place in reasoned debate, or in any context of picking leadership that is meant to deal effectively with emerging realties.
Question: When Darth Vader tells Luke, “I’m your Father”, Does he mean that he is actually his Father…, or as a fallen dark angel with a damaged breath mask, is he like uh me, Satan…, making Luke thusly the spawn of the devil?
Please discuss, don’t be afraid to yell at each other and call each other names. I wouldn’t even mind if you started a war over it.
It is especially festive when you burn those you disagree with at the stake.
Cheers!!! Happy Proselytizing!! Hey, dick, it’s getting chilly in here, turn up the heat.
December 10th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Albert O,
While I appreciate your sentiment, I would argue that no one has the exclusive authority to determine who is a Christian and who is not, but rather only the right to establish the parameters for association with their own particular version of it.
Christianity is after all, a human construct with as many and varied identities as there are people willing to claim some authority to interpret the New Testament.
December 10th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Hey: I know damn well who is a christian, it’s part of my job remember? To corrupt Jesus’ chosen? C’mon help me out here.
My whole back 40 is full of the fools that thought they were.
December 10th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
“Get thee behind me!”
Sorry, your continued service to this enterprize is no longer required or valued. Except in moments of extreme weakness, our posture will be athiestic masquerading as authoritarian paternalism, with a 10% buy-in.
Thanks for your efforts in the past and we wish you well in the future. You have twenty minutes to clean out your cubicle. Security will see you to the exit. Your own planet has been set up for you, hope you like it. And have a merry Chris…er, I mean Happy Holidays. (berp)
December 10th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
MORMONS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS … GET IT??
December 10th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Dear friend Cliff, another thought spawned from your fine blog: the Larry O’Donnell I knew, years ago, was a Kennedy man. I well remember Sargeant Shriver, “family” with the Kennedy’s, leaving the funeral of Kennedy and flying to Brigham Young University at the very depth of his and his whole family’s deep grief. Since he had given his word to BYU to speak…of course, no one saw an assasination coming. In his grief, he showed up in the BYU fieldhouse. The President of Brigham Young University, Ernest Wilkinson, used his time in inroducing Sargeant Shriver to issue a stinging libelous assault on the Kennedy’s, before 25,000 or so, students and faculty. Sargeant Shriver told my grandfather, Hugh B. Brown, that Wilkinson was the god-damned son of a bitch that he was. He ended his homily to grandfather Brown by saying, “that son of a bitch isn’t a Christian. ” Grandfather knew how well Shriver had sized up Ernest Wilkinson.
When my name came up for the first deanship, along with Rex Lee, who was chosen, Wilkinson told the Twelve, and the First Presidency, that “Ed Firmage is the most dangerous man in the Mormon Church.” Perhaps in that instance, he was right. But no one in the Kennedy Clan would think any Mormon was worth the powder to blow them to hell. What comes around goes around, at least for three or four or seven generations.
Ed Firmage
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
December 11th, 2007 at 12:05 am
At once the most dangerous man in the Mormon church and its best hope.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
Lawrence O’Donnell is a damned bigot and a liar. The early Church was against slavery, which is one reason they had such a hard time in Missouri. Also, by attacking Mitt Romney, O’Donnell was also attacking Pat Buchanan’s Sister, Bay, who is LDS. If O’Donnell had of attacked Jews or almost any other religion like he did on the McLaughlin Group he could never show his face on TV again. I for one will boycott anything this peace of human excrement ever appears in.
These people who call themselves “Christians” are nothing of the sort. Christ would be appalled by these people. They are not Christians. Cliff Lyon has more Christ like attributes than any of these so called “followers of Christ” and he is an atheist.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:17 am
Yes Kenneth, no slaves, just your kids, the multitudes that they had, with multiple wives, there is nothing wrong with though is there? It is in the Good Book, the old one anyway.
Well, what you just said about the Jews was a bigoted commented Ken, I love how religion brings out the best in all people.
It was a common practice of the times to use a childs’ upbringing as a form of indentured servitude. Everybody did it right? There’s nothing wrong with that?
I made my son die for my purposes. It’s all good man.
December 13th, 2007 at 7:17 am
Your friends and neighbors have been viciously attacked by Lawrence O’Donnell. His hate filled rant was far worse than what Don Imus said. Imus’ comment was ignorant and stupid but what we saw on the McLaughlin group was an example of true hate. O’Donnell works for MSNBC. Both MSNBC, and their parent company NBC along with GE should be called and demand the immediate termination Lawrence O’Donnell for his outrageous display of true hate.
December 13th, 2007 at 7:41 am
Why, Thank you Ken.
How are your college studies going? I’m dying to hear.
So you agree religion is not a requirement of a strong moral compass. And that one can can know right from wrong and choose to follow a strong moral code without belonging to a church whose leaders claim a special authority to advise other men how to live a righteous life.
I knew you had it in you.
Now, as for Lawrence O’Donnell, I don’t believe he said anything about slavery. You should also know that abolitionism in the day, did not mean not racist. Especially in the mid-west, in meant an economic advantage for those who could not afford to BUY slaves. Abolishing slavery meant a farmer of little means could hire them real cheap.
Pioneering folks like the early Mormons saw that slavery insured the rich could keep an advantage over non-slave owners, not unlike the way corporate farms put the little family farmer out of business.
Minor Correction: “If O’Donnell had
ofattacked Jews” is not proper English. The most common form of this error is “should of” instead of should have.The vernacular “should’ve” is often mistaken to mean “should of.” You’ve just expanded that common error with “had of”.
An innocent mistake.
Great to hear from you!
Cliff
December 13th, 2007 at 7:45 am
Hold on buddy (Ken).
Does or does not LDS doctrine characterize black skin?
Did or did not the church change its position on black men holding the priesthood?
Thats all Lawrence is say’in.
Correction: “hate filled” should be hyphenated to hate-filled. Just trying to help you get gooder grades.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:09 am
Ken,
Mormons were fairly pro-slavery.
Brigham Young is quoted as saying “You must not think, from what I say, that I am opposed to slavery. No! The negro is damned, and is to serve his master till God chooses to remove the curse of Ham…”
December 13th, 2007 at 9:57 am
The early early church (pre-Brigham Young) was anti-slavery. After Brigham, it was pro-slavery.
December 13th, 2007 at 10:12 am
That is good little creations.., this how I figure out those I must dispose of. This last centuries crop is becoming a total wash. Lucifer will be working overtime that lil’ devil!
..see I made you all in my own image, but that was before I visited my plastic surgeon.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
It is the superfice that sells. Smile purty.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Cliff
At last, another semester in the can and one more step closer to finishing. This was one of the best semesters yet. As you know I am majoring in Computer Science at WSU. I have all my generals complete except for more math classes such as calculus I and II. I will be getting my Associates degree in the spring. It’s a very difficult subject and I have had to work really hard to absorb it all but I’m doing it and keeping my grades up as well and working full time. I recently got a new Job that is in the computer field so I am very excited. My training started a week before finals so the last couple of weeks have been intense. My last final was today so I can concentrate on training for my new job. I am making a lot more than I was before so I can breathe easier now. Being on the edge of poverty has changed my perspective a bit. I’m still a dyed in the wool conservative but can certainly understand less fortunate people more than I could before. It has taken a lot of hard work to get myself back on my feet but I know I didn’t do it alone.
Thanks for the grammar lesson. I think my Utahan showed through with the “should of”. At least I didn’t say he “shouldna”.
Yes, I do believe atheists can be moral. In fact I for one have a lot of respect for someone who will be moral for the sake of morality rather than fear of Hell Fire. We as LDS don’t believe in Hell anyway at least not as a physical place. You can be in Hell living here on earth and don’t have to die to get there. I think a lot of atheists will fare better on judgment day than a lot of so called “Christiansâ€. Just one question, does a dead atheist live in denial?
December 13th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Ken, There was a rumor of a dead athiest living on the banks of the Nile. : )
December 13th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Ken B.
Count me in as a tutor on the Calc I and II classes when you get there. The east coast educated liberal in me cannot resist a good challenge from time to time!
December 13th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Nephi
Take you up on that. I need all the help I can get.