Glenden Brown“Rule of law” the new conservative meme
Of late, it seems you can’t turn on the TV without hearing some conservative yammering on about “rule of law” - especially when the topic is immigration. State Rep Glen Donnelson last night on Utah Now used the phrase repeatedly while discussing immigration.
This talk is just a new variation on the conservative fondness for authoritarianism. It expresses itself in Lakoff’s strict father morality but most of us know it as patriarchy. Call it big daddy in the big office, or father knows best, or whatever seems apt, but the model of thinking suggests that there is an authority which cannot and should not be questioned. in the case of immigration, the notion rests somehow in the idea that the “law” must be absolute and those who break the law cannot be seen as anything other than criminals. David Litvack was interviewed on the same Utah Now episode and observed that at all times, he believes we must choose compassion as we make laws. Donnelson by contrast argued that we have to protect rule of law over compassion.
In her essay Why Target Evolution? Alice Beck Kehoe explores the role of “authority” in creationist arguments - pointing out that religious conservatives approach authority as if it final, established and unquestionable. This approach isn’t limited to questions of religion. In his essay The Invisible Bible: The Logice of Creation Science, J Michael Plavcan explores the way in which conservatives approach authority: once something has been established as authoritative, everything that follows must agree with it and if something later contradicts the original authority, that new thing must be rejected or changed.
Applying that same model of thinking, Conservatives approach immigration and talk about the rule of law and from that follows all kinds of legislation denying the children of immigrants education, healthcare, and so forth. Conservatives “originalism” about the constitution is the same thing - the idea that if we know the minds of the framers of the constitution, then everything we do must accord with that otherside we are undermining the authority of the constitution. Arguments about “judges making law” resonate with conservatives for that reason. Arguments about “We’re dealing with issues Thomas Jefferson wouldn’t have imagined” don’t resonate because to the conservative mind such arguments diminish Jefferson’s greatness rather than acknowledge that he was a product of his time. The irony of course comes in when authority figures contradict their previous statements. One thinks of the Mormon church reversing itself on the right of African-American men to hold the priesthood. In a case like this, conservatives attribute the contradiction to some deeper mystery and knowledge not accessible by those persons who are not privileged to be in the circle of authority.
February 16th, 2008 at 9:03 am
I’ve always felt the rule-of-law argument was way overrated. The rule of law is way too restrictive, especially if it’s just american rule of law. We need to consider international laws as well, especially in the immigration debate since the immigrants are, naturally, from another country.
When discussing immigration, why don’t Donnelson et. al. refuse to include Mexican law since Mexico is, or at least should be, part of this discussion. Immigrants are not violating Mexican law when then they immigrate. Why should we only be concerned about american law?
Besides, on issues like this where the public is right, public opinion should trump any rule-of-law argument.
February 16th, 2008 at 9:15 am
Andrea - American conservatives are loathe to refer to law from any other nation - even international law. Conservatives have been having fits for years about a supreme court ruling in which a justice referred to international law - such activities and reference fly in the face of conservative notions of national sovereignty.
February 16th, 2008 at 9:28 am
It all boils down to this: “Respect mah authoritah!”
February 16th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
How can anyone claim to support the rule of law and also back the Bush administration? You would think their little brains would explode.
February 16th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Speaking of mexican immigration law. Should you be caught illegally crossing the border and then working illegally, you will be summarily imprisoned. Ask a Guatemalan. In Canada, if you do the same you will be summarily thrown out. The locals will turn you in. Just ask our soldiers that became conscientious objectors in Canada, over their deployment in Iraq.
Andrea, The Rule of Law is over-rated? Perhaps we then could return to old ways, should the majority consider eliminating the Bill of Rights. The Rule of Law is what makes this Country different from any nation that is comprised by the rule of men. These are primarily tyrannies and fascisms. Consider the rights you have now under the Rule of Law, then look to those that would remove them from you, and ask yourself if the protections are in your words, “overrated”.
For example, should the majority decide that a womans right to an abortion is illegal? Is that negotiable? Any ignoring of the rule of established law weakens the the entire body. Are you of the mind to pick and choose what laws suit you, and then in minority apply them to everyone? The public overwhelmingly supports the application of our immigration laws, even as they are amongst the most lax in the world.
As a sovereign nation we have no obligation to adopt international law. All law must first pass the test of being congruent within the bounds of the US Constitution. All that do not, are null and void, and illegal, domestically AND internationally. Or are you like bush, he that considers the Constitution just a “goddamn piece of paper?
Lastly the idea that we can retroactively excuse illegal behaviors, change laws without due process, and in contravention of Constitutional guidelines, is promoting a concept that is the primary pillar of…
..FASCISM.
February 16th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
I’m all for the rule of law when it comes to enforcing environmental regulations on corporations or for making The Rich pay their taxes, but do we need to be so extreme when it comes to Mexican immigrants?
February 16th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Andrea
Ok lets go with Mexican law where it is a felony punishable with imprisonment to enter their country illegally. It is ironic how Mexico demands we ignore our laws when they are very aggressive in stopping border crossers in the southern part of Mexico.
February 16th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
So you Andrea are you a person that believes some groups are more guilty than others, and that we should accommodate that?
One of the primary foundations is that this is to be a Country of Laws, not men. You seem to be saying you don’t agree with this. That if a persons law breaking suits your concepts of morality, or ethics, then we can ignore their infractions.
I keep thinking in your statements, of George Orwells’, Animal Farm, where all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
In America, we are to be EQUAL before the Law. Anything that divides people based on their perceived status is a primary foundation of FASCISM!
We are lax when it comes to Mexican immigrants. Those that are legal are afforded every right as any other citizen. Those that are illegal are often getting a free ride, as they contribute to the criminalization of our economy by allowing employers to freely operate as FELONS in the conduct of their business…while the rest of the law abiding pay the BILL!!
February 16th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
The GOPervs have spoiled hypocracy for all of us, for all time.
Yes, yes, after the past altogether too many years of thier hideous influence, let us all ‘talk’ about the rule of law. Talk talk talk…
February 16th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Why blame republicans? It is flat idiotic. In this partisan self delusion it becomes apparent that dems and progressives can do no wrong.
Their hideous influence yes, but can we can at least be half honest and describe the hideous COMPLICITY of what is meant to be a loyal opposition?
The division created plays the People exactly into the place the elites wish us. In armed camps against one another.
Black sheep, white sheep
put them all to sleep
make of them our fluffy sweater
they wouldn’t even weep
make of their foolish cries, their very own fetters
while black and white carry on, that our side is better
we are they that do no wrong
the other they just fleece the throng
keep it up, and play your part
and do so, forever, long
and maybe, someday, you will come up smart
even though you’re wrong
and in a way that’s terminal, and humors those along
you know so well that you are right, conviction, oh so strong
that one day you may feel the whip, upon the beasts a start
and see the fools, as they truly are…
as you push your own woolen cart
February 17th, 2008 at 9:44 am
Oh dear Ken,
More corrupt logic. By your logic, the US should prevent American people from escaping to countries that do not want them.
But they don’t. When you travel to another country, US customs does not check to see if you have permission to enter the other country….Why should Mexico?
Your arguments are getting deperate because every position you’ve taken over the past 7 years has been proven wrong in some form or fashion. All you have left is immigration. And you will lose that one too. When will you have had enough.
Instead of arguing, why don’t you be a role model for you children and brethren, and start apologizing for the big mess you’ve fostered?
Lord knows, if you died tomorrow, you’d have a lot of ’splainin to do. Especially when you find out God is actually a six headed progressive liberal woman who HATES arrogant men.
February 17th, 2008 at 9:50 am
We’re all criminalt to one degree or anothger, it’s just that in the quest to create thier own new reality, the pubs have come unmoored from right and wrong (and here I’m being generous), choosing wrong more often than is good for the society as a whole. For this alone they deserve scorn.
As to such observations creating dualistic conflict, sure, it’s a them and us sort of world but fear shouldn’t be the one true operating principle as it has become with the present group of criminals. To bridge this divide it would behoove republicans to do some soul searching on issues moral.
February 17th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Oh, but they do Cliff, as a form of preemption.
sidenote: Right now 30% of our Federal prison population is comprised of…illegal aliens. They get to stay here rather than be returned to their countries of origin, or flee and spread their scourge to some other Country.
Just try to get a passport if you have some kind of record. As a rule, you are often now required to produce proof of a valid passport before you travel to the country of your choice, any discrepancy from the host country is then reported back to US Customs or Homeland Security. Reciprocal agreements.
As messyco is a rather disorderly and often criminal operation, with corrupted elements, it is not so stringent as more “modern” nations. It cannot provide for it’s own people, nor can it manage its criminals, so it EXPORTS them. You think Americans that are sick of it are “bad”. You are quite irrational.
You need a secure ID to enter Canada next year. A biometric ID. Just the way of it going.
Don’t know what you are trying to say there with Ken. Anyone know? It is in fact the case that when aliens attempt to illegally cross mexicos’ southern border, they are summarily incarcerated. Often abused. Plain old facts.
“Especially when you find out God is actually a six headed progressive liberal woman who HATES arrogant men”. Dear God cliff, you’re SCREWED!! Vat of hot excrement waiting maybe, “ala Dante” !!
So cliff, matching wits with the college kids. Not very well at that. You are a real Titan.
February 17th, 2008 at 11:19 am
Cav. Search yourself. Ask yourself, what is it in progressives that make them either so weak in spirit, or so marginalized in thought, that what they claim to “know” what is right and the way things should be, cannot seemingly get the traction you all desire.
It would be far more effective identifying the woeful inadequacies of the left, than continually harping about the process of the right. I figure that ground has been covered enough.
My take is bit different. I believe Hegel was correct.
thesis + anti-thesis = synthesis.
left + right(mix and struggle) = police state (elite domination)
The fight isn’t with the supporters of the right, it is with ourselves, to defend the rights of all people under our Constitution, even if you cannot stomach that it will lead to a group of people living in a manner you don’t like. It is their lives, and if they wish to live it without influence from your ideology…within the constraints of the US Constitution, that is their right.
Do you really imagine that conservative thought is responsible for all our troubles?
For instance: It is not required to have a permit to carry a concealed weapon in Vermont. A quite liberal place. It has the lowest incidence of gun crime in North America. How can this be true in a polarized world, where those that advocate gun rights are baddies?
It’s the People stupid. We sure aren’t homogeneous are we?
It is interesting to me that a person would enclave themselves in a culture they cannot stand, just because the sun shines and the skiing is good. Then move on and try to make it in their image. It sure does not fit into the old dictum of when in Rome, do as the Romans do. My overarching question to those in this struggle is WHY? If it is sun and ski, that says a lot. Or are they on a mission? We all know how they turn out. jesuits and the like. All I know is… diverging extremes attract one another like magnets. I think it’s a law.
History provides that cultures take divergent paths and are at odds with one another continually. Some people prefer not to feed it, and find their ground in common with those that see things the way they do. They live there.
February 17th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Cliff
If we “lose immigration” we have lost our country. Which is exactly why I think a lot on the left are pushing for open borders. Also true conservatism will never be proven wrong because it is based on principles and natural law. It is the pseudo-conservatism that many in the Republican party have been espousing that has been proven wrong.
PS. God does not hate anyone. That sounds like Fred Phelps kind of talk.
Also could you add me back to your blogroll.
I sent you an email but I haven’t received a response.
I also have a new URL
http://oblogatoryanecdotes.com
February 17th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Re Hegal..thesis antithesis synthesis…The only problem I see here is that there are those among us (me, for one) who have come to believe that in order to drag this behemoth even a smidgen toward the left (supposing that that is desirable), one has to exert a great deal of strength, adopt a radical position or band together en mass and share these influences. However, some of us are not very good ‘joiners’.. This is part of the delema and part of the polarization: the coincidental extremism. Otherwise even more miniscule progress is to be expected. I think you’ll grant that the lock-down status-quo can be oppressive as can fucked up political process of all stripes, as can retreat, even though all are parts of the natural order. I guess I’m just kinda impatient.
Thanks for your responses.
Ken, borders are flexible, plastic, human constructs that are there as a divide, plain and simple. Our creator is ok with this plasticity or even no borders at all. I can say this as one who was created in its image. Those on the other side of such a divide are often our very own brothers, sisters, uncles or future brides and certainly no less little bits of that creation. Sure maybe some of them are brown or even black but then again are there any among us who are not? Mongrels rule! Let’s lighten up a bit here. What do you say? Halleluia!
February 17th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
ginny:
Checked out your website. Fascinating how they changed the Chris Cannon article title in the Tribune. So it’s not permissible to have a negative sounding title on a Cannon article in the Salt Lake Tribune, huh? That order must have come from Mr. Singleton.
February 17th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
glenn:
Unless you haven’t noticed, the Mexicans are here already. Our greedy leaders are using the over-the-air media to divide us against them to take the focus off the real problem. The last Mexican election was rigged against a guy who said he was going to help the Mexican poor. The guy who got “elected” had a brother in the voting machine business. The media here ignored the story because it hit too close to home and mirrored our corrupt elections.
The Mexicans are not crossing the border to get health care or to steal our money to send back home. They are sending the money back home to help their family members who are in a worse situation then we are and wouldn’t have come here if Bush friendly candidates were not installed over their. Please stop helping them divide us and further the scheme.
February 17th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Ken, I’ll be glad to add you back to the blogroll. I rarely check OneUtah mail anymore. use my name and manyone.net.
It can’t be true that you are inferring that 50% of Americans would like to give up our country in the way you suggest. That makes no sense.
I’m guessing you have decided for all of us, by fiat, that unless we do something about immigration, you will be eating tacos and cleaning toilets because you don’t speak Spanish.
Of course that is hyperbolic nonsense, but probably sells well during chit chat at Ward functions in Kaysville or deep West Davis County.
I can promise you, if you are worried about a political movement out to destroy our country, look no further than the Republican party. I do believe everything is their fault…as you know.
But whether you agree or not, you cannot deny that your president is a big fat lying piece of shit, and since you voted for him TWICE, you’ll excuse us if we take your opinion under advisement (being polite).
Love, Cliff
February 17th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Cliff
Thanks for putting me back on the blog roll. I was feeling left out.
I can’t speak for other people but the reason why I believe we need to have a sensible imigration policy is not to keep people out, except criminals and terrorists, rather to only allow imigrants in that will benefit our society rather than bring it down. Mexico could have a first world economy but it is so rife with corruption that it cannot build a strong middle and upper class. Instead of dealing with their corruption they are exporting there problems to us. Economically it benefits them because they drain their country of poor people and a more sinister reason is they have their eye on the American Southwest. There are two ways to conquer territory. One is send in an army if you are strong enough. Another way is to send in millions of people to simply occupy it. One foil against that is the people may assimilate and come to identify themselves with their new home but the new multiculturalism is discouraging assimilation which heightens the risk of new immigrants who live here but culturally, linguistically, and loyalty remains in their homeland. In the future there will be civil unrest and maybe even wars to determine who controls the American southwest.
In Europe it is even worse where people are not immigrating as much for economic reasons but for religious reasons. If Europe does not come to grips with its immigration problems many countries may fall to Islam in the future where Sharia law is imposed and enforced by the state. All ready some European countries are accommodating and even incorporating aspects of Sharia law in the name of multiculturalism.
This is not a racial issue at all but an attempt to avoid catastrophes and misery in the future. I don’t blame people from other countries wanting to come here. The American way is to give everyone opportunity no matter where they are from but the way our system works now immigrants come from one miserable situation to another. I am all for a guest worker program because then we can ensure that people are coming here to work and not have to come here as slave laborers like they do now. It would benefit us all if implemented properly, and a good sane immigration policy would help bring that about.
OBTW I like tacos.
February 17th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Ken, If you truly want to understand the REALITY of Mexican immigration, lets go talk with Tony Yapias and Archie Archuletta.
Then and only then should you consider yourself sufficiently informed to claim to begin to be qualified to comment on this subject.
You made so many false statements, even the most uninterested observer would discount you.
Was that your testimony, or are you just swingin for the fences without regard for FACT?
February 17th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
No one is arguing to interfere with legal immigration of any people, so pushing that Straw Man around will get you nowhere.
Immigration enforcement is a primary duty of the federal government, as is defense of borders. Having people here that do not respect our laws, does us damage, and further erodes what’s left of our sovereignty. If illegal aliens from down south are so hard pressed, why stop there? Why don’t you invite and Iraqi refuge into your home and provide for them, or any other of the host of people in dire straits worldwide. People from Latin America are only welcomed as they serve as the modern equivalent of slave labor. It is an abomination lathered up in a cheap patina of good intentions. A pox upon it, and those that profit from it.
Now what has happened, and I don’t expect Utah to know as it behind in just about everything, is that the State laws passed in several States, Colorado being one of them are working very well in motivating illegal aliens to return to their countries of origin.
As noticed in Palisade, Colorado, the shanty village under the Hwy 6 bridge has disappeared. Must be the 25,000 dollar fine for employing an illegal alien. It’s working.
Kudos to those that are going home, they can face their own elites that have been abusing them hundreds of years. Rather than have them distort our economy Larry, you should support them in their mission to cleanse their corrupt nation. We’ll all be better off for it.
Cliff you have nothing to say. You have USED these people and now cover up your activities with your protestations against those that would have immigration law respected and applied. It is applied to all others, and with a rigor you know well from my own experience. All are equal under the law, or are you against that concept? I know the answer to that BTW.
Cliff your facts are all in dispute. Immigration is a serious issue, and one way or another it will be decided. I’ll bet dimes to dollars the States take the initiative, and there will be nothing the bankrupt fed can do about it.
February 17th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Cav there have been borders for as long as there have been people, even dogs and cats have their territory, and there is always a method and calculus for letting in those people you WANT! Better known as a Country.
Why for example does not Israel allow the steady immigration of the hordes of their woefully poor neighbors? They would argue their security is a stake, I imagine many would argue…so is ours.
I love it, if anyone disagrees with the open borders people, the name calling begins, and only their facts are correct. It’s a joke, and the American people ‘aint buyin’ it.
Such tactics smack of bullying and in a wider context stink of simple Fascism.
February 17th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Well spoken Glenn
People come here to get a better life but if they destroy it in the process then neither them or us benefits. You may be a very generous person and allow a poor family to live in your home, but what if they bring a hundred people with them? We simply do not have the means to take in everyone in need.
It seems that every Western state except Utah has learned the lesson and cracking down. As a result many are going back to Mexico and other Latin American countries, but since Utah has put out the welcome mat many of them are flocking here. Utah only has around 2 million people. What will happen if 2 million more come here. We simply do not have the infrastructure to handle it. We can already see the effects. In Utah the middle class is dwindling while both the upper class and lower classes are growing in leaps and bounds. The health of a nation is really determined on the strength of the middle class. Problems arise when the population is mainly super rich and super poor. Utah is in danger of this very thing. Wages will only go lower when illegals come in and work under the table for slave wages. They say they are only doing jobs Americans are not willing to do. That is not true at all we just aren’t willing to become slaves for them.
The open borders crowd say it is a lost cause because we cannot possibly deport 20 million plus people. This is true but what we are finding is if we remove the incentives they deport themselves.
February 18th, 2008 at 7:31 am
Glenn and Ken,
Both of you are using bad arguments.
Glenn says, “Having people here that do not respect our laws, does us damage, and further erodes what’s left of our sovereignty”
That statement is so corrupt as to be maningless.
Ken, you say, “but if they destroy it in the process then neither them or us benefits.” You must be suggesting they are all criminals. Is that true? Are they? Do you have any FACTS to back that up?
If you want to avoid looking like a bigot, try FACTS!
February 18th, 2008 at 8:03 am
You DO know, 50% of immigration today is legal.
Another little factoid is that the number of foreign born residents TODAY is lower than the average since our founding.
February 18th, 2008 at 8:17 am
Lump me derrogitarily with the ‘open borders crowd’ if you will, my name for y’all is ‘inmate’. That sword cuts both ways.
Cliff…”so corrupt as to be meaningless”…respect for laws and this admin is a contradiction of terms. Though they’re native born, Glenn is correct, bashing those law abusing ‘leaders’ has gotten boring. I say we put ‘conservative republican’ in the mental health diagnostic, and be done with it.
February 18th, 2008 at 9:29 am
Cliff - Your point about the number of foreign born residents is extremely interesting. Consider that by contrast, during most of the post-war era, the percent of population that was foreign born was kept artificially low by extremely strict immigration policies - it reached a low in the late 60s or early 70s of around 4 or 5% (I forget which). As a result, immigration today is perceived as a threat.
February 18th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Cliff
Being an Algore fan I know you like charts and graphs. Watch this video that demonstrates the exponential growth of illegal immigration and what is going to happen to this country if Immigration stays on its present course.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-6938488490922460684
Also I am not against legal immigration so it’s not the 50% (if that figure is correct) of legal immigrants that are the problem. As a liberal I am shocked that you are not concerned with the effects of illegal immigration such as slave labor and declining wages. Also Cliff please explain how expecting laws to be enforced is a type of corruption?
Our immigration system how it stands now using big O notation is 0(n^2) with no upper bound.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
If you want corrupt, go into your unclean dirty bathroom, and have a look in the mirror.
You don’t have to single out any particular party to wonder upon corruption. It is childish to presume that the left is good, the right bad. Beyond the posturing, it is evident that the right is perhaps more honest in how it presents itself. The better part of our domestic scum is wearing a progressive liberal suit. Like any parasite, they remain as hidden as possible in plain sight.
Having people here illegally, that cannot be regulated under US law due to their status, like any other legal resident, destroys OUR personal sovereignty. When we cannot civilly or criminally attach a person for damages upon us due to their unenforced illegal status, this damages American citizens PERSONALLY. We are equal before the law or we are not equal. Better life indeed. I would have that life too without consequences for my illegal actions.
“If you speak the truth, keep one foot in the stirrup”. Old Arab saying.
Glenn says, “Having people here that do not respect our laws, does us damage, and further erodes what’s left of our sovereigntyâ€
“That statement is so corrupt as to be maningless”.
So if someone breaks into your house, steals from you, we can let that slide? What corruption of mind have you been inflicted with to be so out of touch with how people feel in America about this issue? Can I disrespect your rules, your property, your infrastructure, your safety, your status? What would your status mean if I could simply do as I pleased and have you tolerate and pay for it?
State clearly what benefit is it for you to promote the violations of our immigration laws. We know you have personally benefited, but beyond that, what is it you hope to gain? I know you are no altruist, so what’s the angle cliff?
PS: 50%. Doesn’t your back ache from pushing that Straw Man around all day? We know how much you enjoy physical labor.
No one here or those advocating enforcement of existing immigration laws is having ANY issue with legal immigration. So what’s your point?
February 18th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Glenn,
Tell me, how DO people in this country feel about immigration? Do you know of a good study (as opposed to a push poll)?
February 18th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
What hypocrisy? It is only the history of our Country. Doesn’t have much to do with me, I wasn’t alive then. It is the litany.
I speak plainly about US history regarding slavery and you can’t deal with the reality. Ok. No problem. Go clean your toilet. In addition go read up on who owned many of the slave ships that brought Africans to this Country. It is really quite revealing.
Are you kidding Cliff, do you imagine that the State laws passed in Colorado, Oklahoma and Arizona might, just MIGHT be the only poll you need to see how the public feels? Heavy fines for employers of illegal aliens, some kind of penalty for the law breakers, and the legitimization of them via visa process, once we sort out the criminals and malcontents. This is necessary for the public safety of current citizens, and the hard working illegals themselves. It will keep them from being basic wage slave chattel. You should know all about this, having been on the ugly side of it.
30% of people sitting in Federal prison are illegal aliens. Does it make no sense to you to at least know WHAT kind of people are roaming around our Country after they illegally transgress our borders?
95% of the people living in America today were born here Glendon.
Bring it you guys, I can two on one all day so weak are the arguments.
February 19th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Glenn, the whole ‘having people here who don’t respect our laws’ argument is as much a result of our leaderships’ shortcomings and criminality as it is reflective of corruption of the individual immigrant. Modelling lies, greed and manipulation of international relations for thier own profit sets a bad example. Fortunately I believe our influence is diminishing.