Stand and Be Counted on Wednesday 5:30
Salt Lake City citizen Rocky Anderson has organized this Utah greeting for Chimpy The Decider. Hope to see you there!
New Rally Information
Print your own fliers and help spread the word:
May 26th, 2008 by Cliff Lyon 
Cliff Lyon
May 26th, 2008 at 9:39 am
Rocky who? Oh yea, that has been mayor of Salt Lake. I vaguely remember him. Yawn.
May 26th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Ken:
Your inability to remember such persons, places, etc. does not come as a surprise. Indeed, you neo-con types would probably be considered half-normal human beings but for the profound ability to block out facts that go against the neo-con, pro-war/pro-death philosophy. Enjoy your day off from work gorging around your big fat barbecue! Your efforts in serving the country certainly entitle you to nothing less!
May 26th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Come Ken! I’ll introduce you to Daniel Ellsberg. Certainly he is a hero of yours?
May 26th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
C’mon by now these kinds of activities are just a little bit trite and nonsensical after all that has happened.
May 26th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
…trite and nonsensical after all that has happened.
Did they win? Is it over? Should I begin “Bleeting”?
After all that has happened, I wish we’d taken it to the streets BIGTIME in 2000 when the supreme court gifted the criminals with the whitehouse. I’m really sorry we didn’t.
May 26th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
John of Manchester,
I have to call you on the carpet here. Either you are for the war or you are against it.
If you are against it and you aren’t standing up, you do not deserve to be an American. In fact, I would suggest that you are unamerican.
If you are for the war, well then you are just a dumbass.
Sorry to be so direct, but you don’t call brave American protesters trite unless you are craven, pasty white piece of shit fucking idiot.
May 26th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
I’ll tell you I’m bored with it, and do not wish to be counted with a bunch of ineffectual hand wringers.
It has become a sort of corner social hour movement for progressives. It doesn’t change anything, worse it focuses the light that you are ineffectual and mean nothing to those that have brought this war to where it is. Do it if you want, it’s a free country, right?
Let’s face it, the tyranny doesn’t give a shit what you think.
I have better means by which to deal with my displeasure with the track the elite have taken vis a vis Iraq. Hanging with protesters isn’t one of them.
For the record, a Real American wouldn’t lace his criticisms of what a person wishes to support or not with racial epithets.
“pasty white piece of shit”. Pretty obvious for that “real american”, diversity of opinion has led to a bit of perversity.
May 26th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
For the record Congress voted to dump another load of your money just recently to pursue the war effort, the Democrat controlled Congress with help from their Republican friends hit a home run on your behalf.
In keeping with the progressive movements credo, with regards to the protest, if it feels good, do it.
Meanwhile the spending and the war continue. Ya’ll driving to the protest?
What makes standing at a protest an act of bravery? Please explain.
If it is because you do believe there is an incipient tyranny, and you may be all rounded up and carted off, well ok. All the more reason to hold democrats more responsible, instead of blindly supporting any of them just because they are in the party.
If this is why you think it brave, or you think you may be bludgeoned by goons onsight, well then perhaps you can obtain an inkling of insight as to why the Founders guaranteed a personal right to own and bear arms.
You know…the wayward government thing that refuses to respond to the elected will of the people, or obey the constraints placed on IT, by the US Constitution.
I think walking to the protest barefoot could well be an act of bravery.
May 26th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Perhaps we should neither CARE, nor seek to REDRESS OUR GRIEVANCE!
I mean we are clearly in the minority, as our number Wednesday will testify. Thankyou very much for your lack of empathy and commitment. We will do it without you, while having your interest in our hearts. You need only protect yourself with your weaponry.
May 26th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Look what protest got the Burmese. When confronted with true tyranny it is nice to have peaceful protest, but it is always nice to have a backstop.
Redress the grievance? Hundreds of thousands of people are dead, billions squandered. Those that have instituted it are either true believers or plain old ruthless. The idea that after what has transpired that a protest will bring some revelation to them is a nice sentiment, but let’s come to terms with the reality.
It will not just go away, though I wish it would. Protest on, hope for the best or a change of heart, meanwhile prepare for what the tyrants methodology means to those people that have tried to resist it without the proper means.
Cav, you need not speak for me, do what you do in your own interest and belief, as others do what they do in theirs. I have been to protests, and to be sure there is a solidarity in it, meanwhile I am no longer interested in this manner of activity, as I have come to see it as a poor use of energy, at least with this crop of tyrants.
May 26th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
John, forgive my terseness, I was pressed for time and perhaps came off as less than understanding.
I get your points about the regime having treacherous potential, the Dems being, if not complicit, at least dumb enough to have been played (and continuing to be so). It is clear to me also that the standard script protest is less than effective so the question needs to be asked: What then? Are the young people so bursting with ideas that can be more successful in reestablishing our democracy, or is it just a long hard slog where ‘Utopian’ possibilities are simply relegated to the trashbin instead of the neocon vision?
Sitting it out can’t be the answer.
May 26th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
No trouble here having been where you are.
Who is sitting out? Just working towards the same ends with a bit more inclination towards the history of what it truly takes to meet tyranny and defeat it with greater success.
It has to be terrified of the People.
I prefer to stick with the truth in the saying, there is nothing new under the Sun, except for history you don’t know. Know your enemy in how they relate to their victims and you know how they will deal with you in protest, when push come to shove.
Tyranny and oligarchies rarely go quietly, and when really threatened have a tendency to morph into entities that are less attachable, yet still wield all their power. In the end, their physical removal iS often required. It is the lack of compromise and disdain for the oppressed that defines tyranny anyway, wouldn’t you agree?
If protesting had merit and was effective in this case, we wouldn’t be here.
Perhaps protesting is much like pissing yourself in a swimming pool, it gives one a warm easy feeling, but no one notices. On to more effective approaches.
Vigilance is the price of peace, there is no peace all by itself. Not with this crowd.
May 27th, 2008 at 12:15 am
I’ve spent the last two days driving around and putting up large posters like the one above. It’s more work then you think. I was able to put up all 45 of them though, and got to meet some people who appreciated what I was doing.
The lazy, apathetic ones said exactly what I knew they would. “He’s not gonna be in office much longer anyway.” Maybe they’re waiting for a thousand more Americans and 10 thousand more Iraqi people to die before they stop making excuses.
I’m not, and it makes me feel good!
I’m going to go and see some people make speeches who do things, not for money, but because it’s the right thing to do!
John of Manchester is going to stay home and shoot bullets into his swimming pool.
May 27th, 2008 at 12:53 am
I wholly doubt Utah’s Republican politicians will be organizing a counter rally for the general public this time. The last one was a truly pathetic spectacle. Just as a refresher, the anti-Bush rally drew a crowd of 5000 and the Pro-Bush counter rally, featured speeches from Orrin Hatch, Mark Shurtleff, Chris Cannon, Bob Bennett, Gary Herbert and others which drew a crowd of around 200. That number included a bus load of seven year olds who looked like even they knew they were being used as props. A scuffle broke out and Orrin Hatch fled the stage.
Mark Shurtleff probably won’t want to be giving another speech about Rocky’s right to be stupid under the present circumstances.
The secret service reported that a crowd of around 3000 showed up at the airport to see Bush get off Air Force One. Hundreds of tickets were supplied to Republican politician’s offices and Matheson got about 25 to give out. None were given out to citizens who wanted one at the rally even though they were promised. Not one decent photo or video was published of the airport crowd for some reason.
Is it just me, or does Bush have a problem showing up at places he’s not invited?
May 27th, 2008 at 4:01 am
I’m laughing now…you going to recycle your posters or are we going to find them blowing around the street by Friday?
All in all have fun at the protest, smoke some dope and hang with your like minded buddies, it’s all good man!
Meanwhile back at the war, and the money pit…
May 27th, 2008 at 6:32 am
Ah John,
I detect cowardice in your apologetics.
The fact that you stereotype protesters (smoke dope etc) pretty much confirms that you have not been to one lately.
By your same logic, one should not join the military or pay taxes. Oh wait, you must be one of those libertarians that thinks roads should be paved by volunteers.
Someone less courteous might suggest you are a parasite on society.
Oh and for the record, democrats receive no small amount of criticism here as well.
May 27th, 2008 at 8:30 am
Nothing is working, not the ballot box, not writing our representatives, least of all protests. David Sirota tries to explain it: Why Democrats Won’t Stop the War. The anti-Iraq movement has two main elements– the “protest industry” and the “professional” side that employs insider political consultants. Neither is having much effect, because most Washington politicians believe they have to be seen as hawkish to be taken seriously.
Sirota’s analysis boils down to the old rule: politicians are motivated only by fear, not friendship or logical argument. “If Democratic office holders know that no functional antiwar uprising is ready to punish them for their war support, then they will just preserve the status quo.”
Around a year ago, I think, there was a big anti-war rally in Washington. I watched the whole program for about two hours on C-SPAN. Rocky Anderson was the only incumbent elected official who came to speak. This was billed as a major national event, and the Salt Lake City, Utah, mayor was the only politician still in office who showed up. Nobody in Washington is afraid of the protesters.
May 27th, 2008 at 10:05 am
What’s so brave about being in the majority?
Larry stated that the last protest brought out 5000 protestors and 2oo pro-war folks.
Is it really that brave to have a picnic lunch with a bunch of like minded people while listening to other like minded people make speeches and perform music? I wonder if all the signs will be alike, too.
The brave ones will be the handful of counterprotestors that will show up. The ones who will get spit on, screamed at, assaulted - -
Not the anti-war folks who’ll bring their kids and a frisbee for a day in the sun.
May 27th, 2008 at 10:40 am
If all the rebubblicans can be distancing themselves from Bush, then so can we. I say forget the standard protest, instead, lets moove in Washington Square as far away from where Bush will be, sit in a circle with an open mike, so everyone can speak, followed by a roaring rendition of Cum-by-ya, and naked frisbee.
Wait…I see Ed F. dofting his skivvies even as Ken grabs his digi-cam.
May 27th, 2008 at 11:59 am
It’s hard to believe, but somebody organizing for the the local MoveOn.org chapter thinks it’s a good idea to have a MoveOn meeting at the exact same time as the rally across the street in the library. This always happens when you try to get a large crowd together. I quit caring about MoveOn when I found out they couldn’t care less that Democratic votes were being stolen, even though a huge majority of their supporters said they thought it should be a top issue.
I may have to round up a bunch of veterans to go over THERE and spit on people. By the way, no veteran was ever spit on after the Vietnam war. That is a huge lie cooked up by the military war profiteers to stifle anybody who doesn’t want to make money for them with their lives.
May 27th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
I wasn’t planning to go, but it might be worth it to discover how the anti-war folks can somehow change diapers, toss Frisbees and soak up the sun while also finding time to scream at, spit on and assault the few pathetic, deluded people who still think Bush is a good president.
Did you know that there isn’t one documented case of a peace demonstrator spitting on anybody?
May 27th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Bold statement, Richard. Not one documented case of a peace protestor spitting on ANYBODY? With a link to an editorial regarding the Vietnam war (which is less an editorial than a shameless book plug)?
Not one? Ever?
Nope…nothing to see here - move along, folks.
May 27th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
It must have been a strategy even at the time of the Vietnam war protests to portray the protesters as being against the veterans. About a year ago, PBS had a couple of shows about the sixties and I kick myself for not having my recorder on, but I know that I saw what must be the rarest clip ever. A crowd of thousands of protesters chanting something like “we don’t blame the troops, we blame you!”
The only people getting spit on them are the right wingers spitting on themselves trying to mess up the discourse.
May 27th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Did I apologize? Where was that? I can say that joining the military is a personal choice, and I have seen toilets that make better use of our tax dollars than our current government, a tax strike would be a dandy idea.
I won’t be courteous, you are a parasite on society Cliff. Well, as all things in nature there must be a reason for you.
I was referring to you Cliff when I suggested toking down, no one else, though maybe Larry.
Well Cliff, seeing as I have read of your activities here, many illegal, or at least of little value if this blog is any indication.
Attending peace rallies does not a peacemaker make. I would imagine it to be a panacea for those who have no simple idea what else to do. You can all talk about it in your old age. I have been to the protests for this war in the first 2 years. At this point I consider them to be a waste of time, as the cows have fled the barn, and to date, no one has closed the doors.
You can consider yourself superior if you like, falls to that in all manner of your statements. Most usually the truth about you, would make you the last to know.
May 27th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Hell, during Viet Nam, many of the troops were against the war, just like today.
That returning GI’s were spit upon was just a big lie, repeated ad nauseum, doesn’t make it any less true! (wingnut dribble)
John of M says “Attending a peace rally does not a peacemaker make” Too true as there will be administration photographers, and possibly provocateurs, if history is to be relied upon.
May 27th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
There is nothing for this affair than for it to run its course. If protest mattered there was enough of it there should have been a difference. It wasn’t.
Someday maybe everyone will grow up enough to see what it is the People are really facing, and then actually do something tangible about those that defy the popular will.
Truly, pacifists don’t mean much to murderers do they now? At least you can protest in the dedicated caged areas. Now that’s Freedom, after a fashion, a fascist one.
May 27th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
To John of Manchester, Ken Bingham and all the other apologists of the Bush administration:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10649.html
Read it and weep. And if you are not infuriated once you do, then you truly are pathetic cowards without the nads to admit you were hoodwinked!
May 27th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
I apologize for no man.
May 27th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Fine, Ken.
Then at least strap on a pair and admit that Bush betrayed your trust.
May 28th, 2008 at 12:57 am
I’m dying to know if Bush is going to try to glom on to David Archuleta while he’s here. My advise to Mr. Archuleta is to run like hell from any joint appearance with monkey man. On second thought, It might cost him his career. Republicans have a whole lot of influence over the media. What a predicament for a seventeen year old to face.
May 28th, 2008 at 4:39 am
Ken,
Its not Bush you need to apologize for.
May 28th, 2008 at 6:34 am
Albert O, I do not get the sense that John of M. is a Bush apologist at all. I believe he may have other mechanisms he’d try, given that protesting seems so ineffective. That is all.
Any arsenal with any hope of success must have a proliferation of media, Gathering together in protest is but one of them. Someone should be at the mansion on the avenues, gathering names of Doners and broadcasting them. Knowingly aiding and abetting is a crime, or was…
May 28th, 2008 at 7:21 am
Hey Cav,
Thats a great idea. Do you know WHICH mansion Bush will be at?
btw: I hope you’ll find me at the protest tonight so I can shake your hand and thank you for your service to this country as a warrior and patriot.
May 28th, 2008 at 7:53 am
Want to meet the President face-to-face? Tickets are still available, at $10,000 each. They had to move the reception to a private home from the Grand America, due to lack of interest.
May 28th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Cliff, this am’s Trib has two of em. One 7th and A, the other in deer valley. I’m not sure how Richards link and the “lack of interest’ (could this be the real ‘counter-demonstration’?) affects all this and one never knows when they’ll send in a ‘double’, as if one puppet is superior to another. I’m irked by the bretheren who are supporting these crimes as well.
May 28th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Like no one knows this.
Mc is parleying his years as mouthpiece into cash. Looks like people are buying.
Again, who is apologizing? If anyone should apologize it should be the utterly played democrat party. 8 years, 8years of going along to get along, and bush is still getting 10,000 a plate. Unbelievable.
May 28th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Ptomain or rebellious pretzels anyone? Only $10,000 and a tax writedown.
May 28th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
The lunch menu was heavily redacted, but I’m quite certain that neither freedom-fries nor conspiritorial pretzels were allowed anywhere near the dining areas.
How is $10,000 plates and a handshake from John, George or Mitt gonna impact the food whirlwind they like to talk so much about? That one’s for you John.
May 29th, 2008 at 12:07 am
Unless I heard this wrong, and I don’t think I did, the prophet had to be scanned with a wand before taking the tour of Air Force One. If anybody has a video of that at the newsroom, please release it! Please? Pretty please?
The rally was a great time! The weather was perfect except for a slight wind. I’m almost sad Bush won’t be coming back. Seems silly that he flew in just for a couple of afternoon brunches to collect currency that’s losing it’s value.
As was the case last time he came, the real party was at Washington Square where people were standing up for the constitution, human rights and whats still good about America. The closest thing I saw to a counterprotestor was a young man with a sign that said “we don’t think Bush is evil, we just disagree with him.” Oh, to be young again!
May 29th, 2008 at 12:11 am
No, nobody spit on the young man with the sign.
May 29th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Hmm - 500 come to protest the president (free) and 200 pay to see him.
That’s good stuff.
Some nice pics here. Boy, it sure was brave of those protestors to stand up against them fearsome looking riot police….*yawn*.
May 29th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Jd, just a sketch of an econimic possiblility with no information to back it up. May it cause you to think: People who disagree with stupid and dangerous policies such as Bushes war, are always paying - for this and every administration. It doesn’t matter if there wasn’t a gate fee at the Washington Square event. Money for gas, bombs, the burial of the dead and on and on are price enough for the wonderful entertainment that is the puppet of our corporate overlords.
All those who donated to the missions accomplishment, got the money used for the purchace of thier sycophantic favors from unfairly high profits generated in the sale of whatever it is they are selling, be it cluster munitions or consultation services. They’re buying in for quid pro quo which will not then descend back to the people from whom the profits were wrangled. That’s the way the thing works. By ripping, gouging, and generously donating, they get closer to the Lords, and by god, might even become one themselves.
It’s a wonderful story. Don’t you think?
May 29th, 2008 at 11:48 am
jd:
If you are so tired - yawn - then why don’t you simply go back to sleep?
If you have trouble falling to sleep, might I suggest rather than counting sheep, you count the number of US soldiers killed because of Bush’s lies and misrepresentations.
May 29th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Anyone get Pictures from this event? I mean other than the same 10 i see on all the news websites.
May 29th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
500 my ass! Try “a couple of thousand“people who came out to see some true American heros from today and yesteryear. jd wouldn’t be able to tell Benedict Arnold from Paul Revere.
May 29th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Here’s jd at the counterprotest from his own link.
May 29th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Hey Larry, what do you suppose jd is holding in his right hand???
May 29th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Albert O:
Whatever it is, it’s either dangerous or lewd.
Funny!!
May 29th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
One vote, in a sea of not-votes, a token, should be conceeded - but the rest come from the sane and demand change, ie, accountability!
May 30th, 2008 at 4:08 am
Benedict Arnold built the first American navy, invaded Canada, and was the real leader behind the American troops crushing defeat of the British under Burgoyne at Saratoga.
After having been passed over and dealt with in an underhanded and cavelier manner by the Colonial political machine, he started thinking for himself, and as he said it, how can a person be a traitor to a country that does not yet exist?
Paul Revere was a great Patriot, the difference is that early on Paul got the government contracts to copper ships, and produce silver items. He was one of the first to get military industrial contracts. Early on before the Revolution he pounded silver for rich tories. There is always more to history than the basic perception.
Something to keep in mind.
Free music and hotdogs, hey, that is enough to get me to come out.
May 30th, 2008 at 5:22 am
Ah John of Manchester my AK carrying, Frisbee-challenged friend. So much to respond to and too little time.
Forgetting for a moment your attempt to paint those of us in the majority as somehow less brave, you seem to have little appreciation of the history of positive change in our country.
Every major correction in public policy, practice and law has come ONLY after good Americans stood up and protested.
I say” correction” out of respect for the fact that you would likely have been on the wrong side of every one.
IOW, I don’t imagine you would have participated in the Boston Tea party nor been among the 30% of colonist who favored independence from England at the commencement of the Revolutionary war.
And surely, you would not have been among the people who stood up for labor rights or against the poll tax throughout the early 20th century.
I’m quite sure you would have gladly opened up water cannons on folks in Selma (do you even know what Selma was?)
And there is no question in my mind, you still believe Viet Nam was a brilliant idea.
I suppose it is and always will be our lot to drag fearful, small-minded, dimly lit souls into the future.
PS: I am rather struck by the idea that you would stoop SO LOW as to accuse me ON MY BLOG, of doing illegal things based on hearsay (anonymous unmoderated comments)…especially given the fact that I have hidden nothing about my identity and my life, while you remain anonymous.
If you are going level material accusations against me, wouldn’t a little backbone demonstrate your integrity? Do you HAVE a backbone, or just guns?
Why don’t you tell us your real name, address, employer, picture — whatever one might consider full disclosure such that you don’t look like such a spineless, yellow-belly yapper. You know, show some accountability, or in your parlance, be a man.
May 30th, 2008 at 6:31 am
I too am a spinless, yellow-bellied yapper, and I’m sorry I missed you at the rally the other day ! I did look for you, ask Ed.
May 30th, 2008 at 6:32 am
Cliff,
Why don’t you lead by example sir
Willing to step up about the Kellerman study and admit you either knew it was flawed and used it anyways or that you didn’t do your research?
How about admitting gun control isn’t a conservative /liberal issue but a rights issue? Rights that you admitted to being willing to trample to get your way, you remember saying that, don’t you?
How about admitting that personal responsibility (or as you say accountability) isn’t a canard?
How about admitting the NRA isn’t racist and doesn’t support racist gun control or the KKK?
How about admitting you were wrong about no gun control law every being overturned on the individual right guaranteed by the 2nd amendment?
How about admitting you parrot left wing talking points repeatedly; often without proper citation?
How about admitting you are wrong that handguns serve only one purpose?
How about admitting you are a hypocrite in that you call names, disparage people often then get upset when I suggest that the words I used were too big for you to understand?
How about admitting gun control laws have not been proven effective and that the rate of crime is rising in every country, state or city that has a gun ban?
How about admitting that Alan Korwin’s statement wasn’t wrong and reckless?
May 30th, 2008 at 8:21 am
This is too funny, hey Pot (head) the the Kettle is black.
You are no Patriot Cliff, your self that most don’t know that represents your personal life speaks to that fact. Must suck being you.
May 30th, 2008 at 11:29 am
Alan Korwin is a big fat liar. I hope he sues me for defamation so I can prove in court.
May 30th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Cliff,
How about the rest….come on
May 30th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Jesus Bob S,
You’re like a little knat…A 4-year-old that won’t stop asking “why.”
I simply will not play games with someone who thinks everyone should carry a gun.
The whole reason I got into blogging was to psychoanalyze the Authoritarian mind. I understand your type well now. You have no intellectual curiosity. The concept of change scares you. You protect your fragile self-image by constantly trying to validate a single simple view of the world without reqard for truth.
It YOUR survival instinct and it is a drag on the rest of us.
A room full of you is sadder than a bunch of monkeys barking at each other and nodding in agreement.
Don’t you have a child support payment to make?
May 30th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Cliff,
You really should get your money back from the schools you attended, they failed you miserably.
You acted as a gadfly to Alan Korwin, demanding he support his statements. Now when it’s turned around on you, you can’t stand it. You evade the questions and attack the person.
If I am such an intellectual simpleton as you claim, where are the refutations of my arguments? You can’t make them because the facts are supporting my arguments.
You did say there was not Court of Appeals decision overturning a gun control law. Heller vs D.C. says you are wrong. That is just one example of the blatantly falsehoods you’ve published but will not admit to being false.
Over and over again, you’ve attacked me personally every time you can not address the issues. You are doing it again.
What is the difference in advocating the position of banning all guns and the advocating that everyone be free to carry a gun? Philosophically none. You are being dishonest in your attempts to address the issues.
Regardless of personal attacks, or maybe because of them, I’ve decided to stick around. It seems that my incessant questioning may be getting under your skin. Too bad sir. You’ve set the expectation way back when, remember?
Consider it my personal mission for a while to take your unsupportable comments to task.
By the way, I don’t have child support payments to make. Quite the contrary, I can take care of my family without needing the government to tell me when and how to do the right thing.
Guess that is the problem with most liberals, they don’t know the right thing to do without the government telling them what it is and making them do it.
May 30th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Ok seriously Bob S. Your presence here is getting really tired. I will have to send you packing if you continue to bluster on with bad syllogisms and pointless narratives about my debate tactics.
You’ve made your point. You have been heard. Do us a favor; don’t vote and go away or get a grip (like maybe, you can educate us on your tired Reaganesque economics). The world is not as it appears to you.
May 30th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Cliff,
Pot, Kettle. Kettle Pot.
Way to foster diversity, debate and reasonable debate. You offer the format and the criteria and I’ve responded. You can’t address the issues that you raise.
What world are you talking about? According to you there is your world, my world, everyone’s world.
I didn’t offer posts on economics, but of personal choice. What is hard about understanding that?
What is making you tired is your refusal to live up to the same standard you ask of others apparently. Why is it okay for you to call out Mr. Korwin, but not be called out?
May 30th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Bob S. Says…I’ve decided to stick around! : ) …but please not to malign ‘liberals; in general. It’s very understandable that many on all sides of numerous issues do not like the gov’t telling us what to do or how to think.
May 31st, 2008 at 4:30 am
Cav,
I try very hard not to malign groups of people based on their political leanings.
If I have done that, I apologize.
I try to be accurate in my statements and address a particular person’s words or actions.
May 31st, 2008 at 5:02 am
Bob S,
It seems you do not know what I mean by bad syllogism. Let me give you an example by comparing Korwin and myself a different way.
I do not make my living writing, publishing, and speaking about gun rights, and I did not go on national TV and lie by extrapolating by orders of magnitude a figure disputed by everybody including the author himself, to scare people into buying more guns.
I, on the other hand, simply copy and pasted some numbers from a real study (however flawed, thank you) for an audience of about 3, which was done by a real and respected organization. I do not receive any money for my efforts. I an not selling books.
Get it? Bad comparison. Bad syllogism. I suppose when I am asked to sit on a panel as Alan Korwin’s equal, at a public event broadcast all over the country, then you may bitch and moan and hold me to a common standard( and I would shred Alan Korwin to pieces for which reason I’m guessing, he never debates in public).
On a more interesting subject, I DO “try very hard… to malign groups of people based on their political leanings.
If you are not a liberal, you are either afraid, too religious, uneducated, greedy, or just way to into yourself (individual responsibility) and impressing other non-liberal people.
May 31st, 2008 at 7:09 am
Cliff, on the spectrum of attitude and ideology born of upbringing and experience, where does one suddenly tip in to the magical approved realm? Some ‘lefties’ are entirely full of shyte in some regards just as some conservatives are inspired and correct in thier own ways. Stridency cannot be very productive of anything but division.
May 31st, 2008 at 7:25 am
Cliff,
Sorry If I see the world differently, but Alan Korwin’s information was broadcast once and is less likely to be available. The information you published was broadcast all over the world (you know that www -stands for world wide web). So who’s information is more likely to be found and used by other people?
You re-publishing of flawed information would also give it greater appearance of being legitimate, the more often it is seen, the more likely it is to be perceived as truth. That whole “big lie” technique of propaganda. Like you I value honesty, wouldn’t you try to get something corrected if it appeared on someone else’s web site?
The last aspect that I find different is in equality. I value the insights supplied by your opinion and Alan Korwin’s as not being far apart in value. I look at the information, facts and data provided and draw my conclusions from that. Not basing my value of their opinion on who has the most credentials or degrees, but how accurate and researched the position is.
Maybe I don’t have your experience with various people, but I find it very difficult to pigeon hole any one person into conforming to an exact political philosophy. I agree with many liberal positions but also have libertarian positions, conservative, green, etc.
I’m not out to impress anyone, but like you to make a difference in the world in the small way I can. I consider 2nd amendment rights to be, at the moment, of one of the highest importance. I’m not uneducated, but currently my bachelor degree is as high as I have gotten. Once my kids are out of the house, I plan on going back for a master’s.
I do applaud you for the open forum you host. I’ll try not to be so obnoxious, but will challenge inaccuracy. Fair?
May 31st, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Bob and Cliff, in the interest of full disclosure: I, myself have generalized about the mindless scum-sucking of our bretheren on the right in what one may interperate as an unseemly manner, repleat with colorful and numerous expletives. But then, I’m always right, and never wrong.
May 31st, 2008 at 1:16 pm
It was right about the time Kerry got swift-boated that I decided, concerns about being “unseemly” weren’t working. We were being crushed my a merciless Machiavellian cabal.
And the American people were not paying attention and the bastards stole another election.
Way I figure it, at least some of us have to be warriors. The media and the American people only seem to hear the louder voice.
I am willing to be one of the loud ones. I can take the heat. No wife, no kids, no hostages.
…and I have the facts on my side on you watching my back.
May 31st, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Swift-boating: (verb) The act of exposing the truth about a candidate’s past resulting in the defeat of said candidate.
May 31st, 2008 at 2:45 pm
You can find the real definition of swiftboating on the Urban Dictionary.
May 31st, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Speaking of swiftboating. Now that Karl Rove should be put under oath concerning the imprisonment of Governor Don Siegelman, Richard’s Urban Dictionary definition of the term makes sense. Governor Siegelman has tried to get every major source he’s talked to informed of his election being stolen by voting machines. They won’t touch that one at all, but 60 minutes wanted to focus on an allegation from a woman who said Rove had told her to get photos of Seigelman in a compromising sexual situation.
In a response to Dan Abrams about the case in a letter, Rove asked dozens of question of Abrams about the woman. Instead of focusing on election fraud, Rove and the media want us to focus on a he said, she said story which will go nowhere and make the Siegelman outrage look like a non-issue. To make it simple, it looks like Siegelman was put in prison for being a popular Democrat running for office in the south. They were probably worried they wouldn’t be able to steal it with the machines again because of Siegelmans willingness to talk about that. A BIG message had to be sent.
I guess another term for swiftboating could be “typewritered”, which is what happened to a verifyable story Dan Rather did about Bush’s poor service to his country in the national guard.
May 31st, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Swiftboating is merely a subcatagory of the republican slime machine. Ideally it is only properly labeled ’swiftboating’ when it has brought down its intended target, whereapon it becomes the ‘truth’. Further, the ‘truth’ can be gotten at by repetition of ‘not-truth’ as well as presidential declaration. (If that declaration is made by a republican).
Now, it must be made clear that ‘the truth’, as it is understood by those who do not subscribe to REALITY (once again- the Rs), is an entity beyond the recognition of those not so imbued with that particular PATHOLOGY!.
May 31st, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Sorry but Republicans are merely Amateurs in the slime machine industry. Democrats are seasoned professionals.
May 31st, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Ken, a Democrat who slimes is, by definition, a Republican.
Re-read my second para (directly above) and have at it.
It would be fair to assert that neither house is without fault, but swiftboating, big lie, and executive manipulation and disregard of constitutional law are, for the most part, the Republican concern.
May 31st, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Ken,
Was that it? Thats your apology?
So now its the ole “I may suck but you suck worse”
What about the child molesters, bribe takers, womanizers, war criminals, and general traitors (Plame)?
Whats that got to do with slime? You don’t give republicans enough credit for the depth of their evil.
June 1st, 2008 at 4:26 am
Now that you are about done ****ing each other, did either of you come?
June 1st, 2008 at 6:24 am
Anon,
Now that you are done SWIFT-BOATING the opposition. Did you get your quid pro quo in the form of corporate welfare?
Fixed yer dumb-assed typos.
I’m taken by Kens’ view of a variety of procedures, tactics and other mechanisms of thought manipulation as ‘industries’, as if the electorate were mere robots, incapable of seeing through the propaganda and holding the perpatrator in contempt. A minor mechanical adjustment really should suffice. I guess some of us aren’t.
June 1st, 2008 at 10:14 am
Huh Cav? Are you involved then also? Is it a menage’ a tois? You mean skin boating don’t you, isn’t that what Cliff and Bob have been doing to each other?
You have fixed my typos? , well thank you then! I knew there was a purpose.
Perpetrator that you can be.
Corporate welfare? I haven’t yet received my stimulus check.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Sex, sex, sex! Isn’t anyone interested in helicopter rides anymore?
Anon, no offense, I just walked in and took you for the other anonymous. Feel better?