Cliff LyonTerrorists, Secessionists, Sarah Palin and Guilt by Association
This is one of the hottest articles tonight at Digg.
Terrorists, Secessionists, Sarah Palin and Guilt by Association
Disgust
her interviews that are nothing more than disconnected prepositional phrases laced with stock GOP pablum. But accusing a sitting U.S. Senator of “palling around with terrorists” is crossing the line.
…followed by fact,
And you stood there Governor, like a caribou caught in the headlights. And you still stand there, but now with the audacity to stand at the top of your glass castle throwing rocks at other people. There is a big, big difference between a limited association with someone who had committed a crime 40 years before, and being married to a man who supports the destruction of the United States.
October 6th, 2008 at 6:30 am
Cliff
The terrorist Bill Ayres isn’t someone Obama hardly knew or had a casual acquaintence with . This is a deep association where they have had meetings together, spoken together. Obama announced his Presidential campaign from Ayres home. They have a deep connection both personally and philosophically. Enough that I have no doubt if Obama was old enough in the 60s he too would have been planting bombs along side his close friend William Ayres.
Read: http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/971106/justice.shtml
October 6th, 2008 at 6:38 am
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Secession is Patriotism. The Republican Party is Orwellian to the core.
October 6th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Ken, not only are you passing along grossly distorted information and lies, you are falling for the big distraction. Take a look at the stock market today. The bailout didn’t have the desired effect of inspiring confidence and stabilizing markets. On the contrary. But you’re busy with your nose stuck in the Repug talking points and missing the disaster our world is quickly becoming. Look for the truth, Ken. It’s out there for the asking.
October 6th, 2008 at 8:35 am
Throwing 700 billion at a multitrillion dollar economy is like throwing a bucket of water on a house fire. The bill was ill-conceived and ram rodded through without clear thought. We had an opportunity for some real solutions that would stimulate the economy but instead we took the socialist route and decided throwing money will solve the problem. Not only will it not work but it will make things worse.
Real solutions are impossible because none of the players will take responsibility for their own actions. If everyone else’ s fault. The governments actions are especially egregious because they refuse to investigate themselves but blame the Stock Market and the Real Estate markets. The markets were taking their queues from the government which was a huge mistake.
We are headed for some hard times and are paralyzed to do anything about it because real solutions will bruise powerfull people and groups will keep things in the courts for years.
October 6th, 2008 at 9:26 am
Ken:
Never thought I see the day where you called Monkey Man a socialist!
Good for you. We can take comfort in knowing brain-dead republicans have now come around to hating W. By the end of 2008, his approval rating will probably be near 2%, with his leading supporters including McCain and Palin and those good folk out there who actually have the gall to support their ticket, for whatever reason.
October 6th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Ken– On HuffPo, John K. Wilson offers a thorough debunk of the “guilt by association” charges against Obama.
My favorite:
October 6th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Richard,
I’m not sure I would call it a thorough debunking
Any evidence, any proof, any countervailing arguments, Nope. Just the authors word that it isn’t a grand scheme….wow, how detailed of a debunking is that.
U.N. Definition:
So, no actual deaths are needed and definitely the actions William Ayers fits the definition. Ayers was a terrorist.
Mr. Wilson offers no counter evidence and definitely adding the Joyce Foundation isn’t going to win Obama friends with conservatives.
In the end, it’s not a debunking as a personal opinion.
October 6th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Bob S.– By your cherry-picked definition, maybe Ayers was a terrorist wannabe forty years ago. I was around then, and I don’t recall anyone being terrified of the Weather Underground. Their main accomplishment was they blew themselves up in 1970.
There’s nothing to back up the assertion that Barack Obama spent any time “palling around” with Ayers.
What do you think of Senator John McCain’s close association with Ahmed Chalabi? Evidence of good judgment?
October 6th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Richard,
I don’t think that McCain’s association with Chalabi is evidence of good judgment, but you don’t imply the same for Ayers and Obama?
I disagree with your “wannabe” designation:
No evidence they spent time “palling around”. Okay, they didn’t pal around, they just served on the same board, Obama’s campaign was kicked off at Ayer’s house when Palmer stepped down….etc.
As my mom, like many others, said “You are known by the company you keep”
October 6th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Bob S.– The Ayers smear is pretty thin stuff. Most people have no idea who the guy is, and there’s nothing to the accusations. What else you got?
October 6th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
So Bob S., do you really believe any of that crap, or are you just trying to win the debate? Two guys serving on the same board does not constitue palling around just because they showed up for the same meetings. I’m sure you know board members often do not even see each other outside of those meetings. Show us something besides the meetings to show they were palling around and not just fulfilling their director responsibilities. (Palling around would imply socializing together, so give us those examples.)
This attempt to destroy Obama’s character is reprehensible. It really ticks me off when right wingers complain about the politics of personal destruction while they engage in it as a strategy.
McCain has shown himself to be unworthy of being president. He is willing to win at any cost. Play a chess move with a VP candidate, make another move with personal smears, use the Hussein name whenever possible, and try to imply Obama is associated with the terrorists. We all know this calling of Ayers a terrorist is deliberate language to make it sound like he is tied to MIDDLE EAST terrorists.
McCain doesn’t have anything left except to bash Obama. He’s not going to talk about the issues or his policies. He deserves to lose.
October 6th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
If you go over to a guy’s house, work with him on a regular basis on political stuff, say you have a “friendly” relationship with him, find out he’s not only a terrorist but an unrepentant one who recently said the Underground should have done more and DON”T STRONGLY DENOUNCE the person, it does say something about your character.
Now, Seriously Richard W., do you accept Obama’s explanation concerning his pastor that he never heard or knew about his more inflammatory statements? Can you tell me that you honestly believe that? If you do believe that then you should at the very least agree that Obama isn’t very good at paying attention and a terrible judge of character in booth cases. Is that who we want as President; someone who doesn’t know his own pastor is an out right racist?
If Obama told you himself that he knew Ayers was a terrorist and knew Wright was a racist, would you still be voting for him? Can you imagine how damaging it could be to Democrats if this guy gets elected and turns out to be the very radical Republicans have made him out to be? Are you willing to risk the future of the Democrat Party on the play of such a wild card?
October 6th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
R.O. — For your information, Senator Obama has renounced both Ayers and Wright in the strongest terms– just to make people like you happy. But you’re not happy, you are repeating the old smears from months ago.
With regard to Reverend Wright, John McCain said: “I think that when people support you, it doesn’t mean you support everything they say. Obviously, those statements are things none of us would associate ourselves with.”
Can we please have an election about issues people care about? Or would that be inconvenient for the Republican Party?
October 6th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Bekkieann,
I believe “this crap”. McCain is being targeted for his support and association with Chalibi. So, does associating with someone show good judgment or not?
Obama didn’t just serve on the same board with Ayers. There worked together, they shared the same goals, why else be on the same board. I’m not saying they shared all the same goals but the ideology was there.
Politics of personal destruction? Wow…love that phrase. So questioning someone’s affiliations is destructive? Trying to find out why a person sat in a church that preached “Black Liberation Theory” is destructive? Not only sat in that church but took his kids there. I take my kids where I want them to learn my values, isn’t this the same?
Shouldn’t I know what values Obama has?
October 6th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Richard W.
EXACTLY! Obama didn’t denounce anyone until it started hurting his campaign for presidency.
If he had to denounce them, should he have spend years working with them, going to that person’s church?
Remember that Point/Counterpoint post that I suggested and you thoughtfully hosted? It was talking about the issues, something that quickly gave way to the personal attacks.
While both sides engage in personal attacks, can you honestly say the questions about Obama’s associations are on the same level as the vicious, reprehensible attacks on Palin and her family?
October 6th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Bob S. asks:
Answer: Yes, you should know by now if you’ve been listening to his speeches.
October 6th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Richard,
So what a politician says during the campaign season is what he really believes?
I think that you were saying something else a while back, weren’t you?
There is another saying that is appropriate here:
What you do speaks so loud, I can’t here what you say.
What has Obama’s actions said about his values?
October 6th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Bob S. — It all depends on whether the politician is lying or telling the truth, doesn’t it? John McCain’s campaign is entirely based on lies.
October 6th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Richard,
Example of what I’m talking about:
October 6th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Richard,
I’m confused; John McCain’s campaign is based only on lies?
How about all those times during the debate that Obama agreed with McCain?
Does that mean Obama is lying also?
October 6th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
That he’s for public financing of elections (just not HIS election).
That today, he supports the Second Amendment (because there are a lot of bitter gun owners in swing states).
That the President should meet with hostile foreign leaders (or not).
That the Telecom companies shouldn’t have immunity for violating civil rights (unless he’s actually going to win the Primary - then he should support that legislation)
That we’ll withdraw from Iraq immediately (or whenever we win - err, what McCain said)
That’s all I can think of for now….
Richard, you yourself said that you aren’t gonna vote for this guy, so why are you defending him?
October 6th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Bob S. — You’re trying to be cute. Obama was using an old debater’s trick, to show someone is wrong in a polite way by partially agreeing with them.
Note, you are using your favorite trick, reductio ad absurdum. I never said that every word out of McCain’s mouth is a lie– I said his campaign is entirely based on lies.
October 6th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
jd– Was I defending Obama? If so, unintentional. I’m trying to attack McCain with everything I’ve got!
October 6th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
From GOP.com
The Obama Ayers Relationship
The Relationship Between Barack Obama And Bill Ayers Is Much More Extensive Than Obama’s Campaign Is Willing To Admit
Obama’s Top Campaign Staff Have Attempted To Downplay The Relationship Between Obama And Bill Ayers:
Obama Spokesman Robert Gibbs Said That Obama And Ayers Weren’t Close And That Obama Was Only 8 Years Old When Ayers Was Bombing Buildings. Robert Gibbs: “If you read the article … it says these two men weren’t close, this man isn’t involved in our campaign. Bill Ayers is somebody that Barack Obama said his actions were despicable and these happened when Barack Obama was 8 years old.” (FOX News’ “FOX & Friends,” 10/6/08)
Gibbs Has Also Limited The Relationship Between Obama And Ayers To Serving On Two Boards Together. John Roberts: “Barack Obama knew Bill Ayers and had contact with him between 1995 and 2005. Exactly what was the nature of the relationship?” Robert Gibbs: “Well, John, as The New York Times reported this weekend, they served on two boards together during that time period.” (CNN’s “American Morning,” 10/6/08)
Even Obama Has Previously Referred To Ayers As “A Guy Who Lives In My Neighborhood” And Not Someone He Exchanges Ideas With “On A Regular Basis.” Obama: “George, but this is an example of what I’m talking about. This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who’s a professor of English in Chicago who I know and who I have not received some official endorsement from. He’s not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis. And the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was 8 years old, somehow reflects on me and my values doesn’t make much sense, George.” (Sen. Barack Obama, ABC Democrat Candidates Presidential Debate, Philadelphia, PA, 4/16/08)
But Obama’s Connections With Bill Ayers Are Much More Extensive Than He Or His Campaign Staff Is Willing To Admit:
In 1995, During Obama’s First State Senate Campaign, William Ayers And Wife Bernadine Dohrn Hosted A Meeting Of Chicago Liberals At Their Home For Obama, Which One Attendee Said Was Aimed At “Launching Him.” “In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced her chosen successor, Barack Obama, to a few of the district’s influential liberals at the home of two well known figures on the local left: William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn. While Ayers and Dohrn may be thought of in Hyde Park as local activists, they’re better known nationally as two of the most notorious — and unrepentant — figures from the violent fringe of the 1960s anti-war movement. … ‘I can remember being one of a small group of people who came to Bill Ayers’ house to learn that Alice Palmer was stepping down from the senate and running for Congress,’ said Dr. Quentin Young, a prominent Chicago physician and advocate for single-payer health care, of the info rmal gathering at the home of Ayers and his wife, Dohrn. ‘[Palmer] identified [Obama] as her successor.’ … Dr. Young and another guest, Maria Warren, described it similarly: as an introduction to Hyde Park liberals of the handpicked successor to Palmer, a well-regarded figure on the left. ‘When I first met Barack Obama, he was giving a standard, innocuous little talk in the living room of those two legends-in-their-own-minds, Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn,’ Warren wrote on her blog in 2005. ‘They were launching him — introducing him to the Hyde Park community as the best thing since sliced bread.’” (Ben Smith, “Obama Once Visited ’60s Radicals,” The Politico, 1/22/08)
From March Of 1995 Until September Of 1997, Obama And Ayers Attended At Least Seven Meetings Together Relating To The Chicago Annenberg Challenge. (Chicago Annenberg Challenge, Board Of Directors Meeting, Minutes Of The Board, 3/15/95, 3/31/95, 4/13/95, 6/5/95, 9/30/97; National Annenberg Challenge Evaluation Meeting, List Of Participants, 5/24/95; Chicago Annenberg Challenge, Chicago School Reform Collaborative Meeting, Minutes, 10/23/96)
* NOTE: Bill Ayers Was Asked To Help Obama Formulate The Chicago Annenberg Challenge By-Laws. (Chicago Annenberg Challenge Board Of Directors Minutes, 3/15/95)
In 1997, Obama Praised Ayers’ Book On The Juvenile Justice System. “The two men were involved in efforts to reform the city’s education system. They appeared together on academic panels, including one organized by Michelle Obama to discuss the juvenile justice system, an area of mutual concern. Mr. Ayers’s book on the subject won a rave review in The Chicago Tribune by Mr. Obama, who called it ‘a searing and timely account.’” (Jo Becker and Christopher Drew, “Pragmatic Politics, Forged On The South Side,” The New York Times, 5/11/08)
* Obama On William Ayers’ “A Kind And Just Parent: The Children Of Juvenile Court”: “A searing and timely account of the juvenile court system, and the courageous individuals who rescue hope from despair.” (Chicago Tribune, 12/21/97)
“[Obama And Ayers] Have Also Appeared Jointly On Two Academic Panels, One In 1997 And Another In 2001.” (Russell Berman, “Obama’s Ties To Left Come Under Scrutiny,” The New York Sun, 2/19/08)
From 1999 To 2002, Obama Served With Ayers On The Board Of Directors For Woods Fund Of Chicago. “[Ayers] served with [Obama] from 1999 to 2002 on the board of the Woods Fund, an anti-poverty group.” (Timothy J. Burger, “Obama’s Chicago Ties Might Fuel ‘Republican Attack Machine’,” Bloomberg, 2/15/08)
* During The Time Obama And Ayers Served Together On The Woods Fund, Ayers Was Quoted Saying “I Don’t Regret Setting Bombs … I Feel We Didn’t Do Enough.” “‘I don’t regret setting bombs,’ Bill Ayers said. ‘I feel we didn’t do enough.’ Mr. Ayers, who spent the 1970’s as a fugitive in the Weather Underground, was sitting in the kitchen of his big turn-of-the-19th-century stone house in the Hyde Park district of Chicago.” (Dinitia Smith, “No Regrets For A Love Of Explosives,” The New York Times, 9/11/01)
* NOTE: Obama, Born August 14th, 1961, Was 40 Years Old When Ayers Was Quoted. (Obama For America Website, http://www.barackobama.com, Accessed 10/6/08; Dinitia Smith, “No Regrets For A Love Of Explosives,” The New York Times, 9/11/01)
* While Obama And Ayers Were Serving On The Woods Fund Together, Ayers Posed Standing On An American Flag For An Article In Chicago Magazine Entitled “No Regrets.” (Marcia Froelke Coburn, “No Regrets,” Chicago Magazine, 8/01)
Obama And Ayers Are Neighbors In Chicago’s Hyde Park Neighborhood. “Twenty-six years later, at a lunchtime meeting about school reform in a Chicago skyscraper, Barack Obama met Mr. Ayers, by then an education professor. Their paths have crossed sporadically since then, at a coffee Mr. Ayers hosted for Mr. Obama’s first run for office, on the schools project and a charitable board, and in casual encounters as Hyde Park neighbors.” (Scott Shane, “Obama And ’60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths,” The New York Times, 10/4/08)
* Obama Spokesman Ben LaBolt Told The New York Times That Last Year Obama And Ayers “Bumped Into Each Other On The Street In Hyde Park.” “[Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt] said they have not spoken by phone or exchanged e-mail messages since Mr. Obama began serving in the United States Senate in January 2005 and last met more than a year ago when they bumped into each other on the street in Hyde Park.” (Scott Shane, “Obama And ’60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths,” The New York Times, 10/4/08)
* Neighbors Have Said “It’s Only Natural” That Obama Would Know Ayers, Who Often Opens His Home For Gatherings, As Obama And His Wife “Are A Part Of Our Neighborhood And Part Of Our Social Circle.” “Since coming out of hiding in 1980, the couple have raised three boys in Chicago and become part of the fabric of their liberal South Side neighborhood. Neighbors said it’s only natural that Obama would know Ayers and Dohrn, who often open their homes for gatherings filled with lively discussions about politics, arts and social issues. Obama and his wife ‘are part of our neighborhood and part of our social circle,’ said Elizabeth Chandler, a neighbor of Ayers’.” (Trevor Jensen, Robert Mitchum and Mary Owen, “Bill Ayers’ Turbulent Past Contrasts With Quiet Academ ic Life,” Chicago Tribune, 4/17/08)
Ayers’ Organization, The Weather Underground, Was A “Violent Left-Wing Activist Group”:
“William Ayers … [Was] A Founding Member Of The Group That Bombed The U.S. Capitol And The Pentagon During The 1970s.” (Russell Berman, “Obama’s Ties To Left Come Under Scrutiny,” The New York Sun, 2/19/08)
* Ayers’ Group, The Weather Underground, Is A “Violent Left-Wing Activist Group.” “Senator Obama’s ties to a former leader of the violent left-wing activist group the Weather Underground are drawing new scrutiny as he battles Senator Clinton for the Democratic presidential nomination.” (Russell Berman, “Obama’s Ties To Left Come Under Scrutiny,” The New York Sun, 2/19/08)
The Weather Underground Produced A Manual Which Begins, “We Are A Guerrilla Organization. We Are Communist Women And Men, Underground In The United States For More Than Four Years.” “The coalition was said to be a violence-prone faction inspired by the Weather Underground’s ”Prairie Fire,” a guerrilla warfare manual published in 1974. The manual begins, ‘We are a guerrilla organization. We are Communist women and men, underground in the United States for more than four years.’” (Paul L. Montgomery, “2 Women In Brink’s Case Identified With Weathermen From Start In ‘69,” The New York Times, 10/ 22/81)
October 6th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Ken:
Your point is?
October 6th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Getting back to the subject of Alaska secession, have a look at the home page of the Alaskan Independence Party (AIP). Their motto isn’t “Country First” but “Alaska First, Alaska Always.”
From ABC News:
Under pressure from the McCain campaign, Clark later recanted.
October 6th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Richard,
So someone’s husband being a member of a legitimate political party is subject for debate…..but someone’s friendship with known terrorists isn’t?
How about Obama’s relationship with his Minister of 20 years? You know the one that married Barack and Michele, who baptized both of his daughters, who blessed his house?
Care to discuss the parallels between the AIP and the Black Liberation philosophy?
How about Obama’s relationship with Tony Rezcko?
Those apparently aren’t too newsworthy for the left stream media but Todd Palin’s membership with a extreme political party is?
October 6th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Bob S. — People (e.g. McCain and Palin) who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw rocks. Just sayin’.
Have you checked out Sarah Palin’s minister, the witch hunter?
If there was a comparable video of Senator Obama, let’s face it, Hillary would have used it and Obama would not be the nominee.
In other news, the Dow sank below 10,000 today for the first time since October 2004. Nobody cares about anything else.
October 6th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Richard:
Right on you are re the stock market. We could have terrorist attacks on American soil daily for the next four weeks, yet all the brave Republicans who want to take the war to the terrorists’ soil will cower and think otherwise when they see their 401(k)s shrink to nothing. It’s easy to be brave when others are paying the price! Obama wins in ‘08!
October 7th, 2008 at 3:32 am
This is how people in denial always react Bob S. when confronted with information that challenges their world view. Instead of taking the information in and allowing their view to be altered, they go on the offensive and say “oh, Yeah? Well look at this! Look at your guy!” Feel comforted Bob S. that if Obama does get elected it will put a stain on the Democrat Party for years if not decades. What I feel for is all the strong black leaders who aren’t radical and aren’t racist that will have a difficult time being elected to higher office after the Obamagates.
October 7th, 2008 at 7:57 am
R.O.– You don’t go on defense when the other side goes negative. Ask any political consultant.
October 7th, 2008 at 8:30 am
The whole guilt-by-association tack is purely a distraction. Intelligent people understand how this ploy works and know that Obama is neither a terrorist nor anti-American, as is being implied by all of this.
There is not one person in the U.S. whose entire past life could hold up under scrutiny — including, I’m sure, all of the contributors to this thread.
Clever speechwriters and campaign strategists twist events and facts and then tell you what your conclusion should be. And this drags us away from the critical issues of the day and wastes precious time needed to convey the really important messages.
Ken, you can copy and paste all you want from the GOP.com site, but until you start looking for opposing viewpoints, you can’t ever be sure you know the whole unbiased version of the story.
RO and Bob S, I am not buying that either of you really believe Obama is a terrorist or anti-American.
October 7th, 2008 at 8:54 am
He’s not a terrorist huh? Well he just got Kenya, the country his father is from, to arrest one of his top critics. Jerome Corsi, Author of the book “The Obama Nation” has been detained by the Kenya regime just before he was about to conduct a news conference with information damaging to the Barack campaign. More intimidation attempts by the Obama campaign to silence all decent. This just shows how the dictator in waiting Obama will act but exponentially worse if he takes power in the United States.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77268
October 7th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Ken, please point out where this article or any other source says “He got Kenya” to do anything. Your paranoia has you completely over the edge.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Bekkieann,
I am curious about something… If McCain was known to be “friendly” with someone who admitted to and recently took pride in bombing Abortion Clinics, would you hold it against him. Would you believe that it would be something that should affect the outcome of nothing less than the election for the President of the United States? Now let me ask you if the same thing were true about Obama would it matter to you? I’ll put money that your answers would be Yes then No respectively.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Trick question, Richard. You present false assumptions and then ask me to respond to them. The fact is, Obama has repeatedly denounced Ayers’ actions of over 40 years ago.
Now if McCain himself personally endorsed the bombing of abortion clinics, that would be different, wouldn’t it?
I still don’t believe you fall for that guilt by association propaganda.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:09 am
Okelberries, gulible? Imagine that.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Bekkieann,
Please show me anywhere that I’ve said that I’ve thought Obama was a terrorist or Anti-American.
It can’t be done. I’ve talked about the values that a person displays by who they spend time with. Just like others here McCain/Chalibli vs. Obama/Wright/Ayers/ and others.
One of my favorite quotes is from Aristotle:
Think about that in connection with Obama. Where did he repeatedly go to church? Look up the theology of that that church, the black liberation theology.
People here talk about Bush being out of touch during Katrina….but how about a candidate that spends 20 years at a church and doesn’t know what it’s pulpit minister is saying?
So, we either have a candidate with a habit of not paying attention or someone who is lying about his beliefs.
Then we move on to William Ayers…..does it matter if someone hangs around with an admitted terrorist, one who still feels he did the right thing and would do it again. At least it tells us where Obama gets his lines about opposing the surge. What else is he getting from Ayers.
We are what we do repeatedly. What has Obama done repeatedly?
October 7th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Ken and RO:
The both of you have so completely become what you accuse liberals of being for the past several years vis-a-vis the W administration that it not only borders on hypocrisy, but paints a picture of true irony.
Enjoy the debate, tonight, gentlemen.
PS. Any wagers on the exact minute McSame blows his stack?
PPS. Bob, this comment is addressed to you, too!
October 7th, 2008 at 10:26 am
It was McCain-Palin campaign spokesperson Nancy Pfotenhauer who said that if McCain “hung out with somebody who had bombed abortion clinics” it would be a legitimate topic of discussion.
Interestingly enough, Senator McCain voted in 1993 and 1994 against making “bombings, arson and blockades at abortion clinics, and shootings and threats of violence against doctors and nurses who perform abortions” federal crimes.
Does McCain support domestic terrorism?
October 7th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Good question, Richard.
And are there any concerns about these sort of tactics?
Since when do campaigns use local law enforcement?
Oh yeah! I remember.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:32 am
BS,
Your thoughtful if esoteric Aristotle quote doesn’t support your argument (Obama repeatedly went to church but he never bombed anything nor participated in any anti-American activity, and repeatedly DENOUNCED those things).
But never mind. The rest of your comment indicates what you purport to believe about Obama. The fact that you very carefully avoid saying it just makes me wonder . . .
(By the way, no offense intended by using your initials - they are the same as my own.) - BS
October 7th, 2008 at 10:39 am
Richard
McCain only voted against making it a federal crime not because he thinks its is ok to bomb abortion clinics but because there were already state laws that take care of these crimes (which I do consider any bombing by individuals or groups for political purposes to be acts of terrorism). Unlike Obama who sees nothing wrong with murdering babies that are born alive after botched abortions.
However after 9/11 I now agree that all acts of terrorism should be federal crimes because they are targeting the entire country not just individual states. I’m sure if the vote was held today McCain would agree.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:45 am
Bekkieann,
Nice to meet another BSer :)
Yes, my comment does support my argument. I never said that Obama was a bomb throwing terrorist but if you hung around with people who did those things…wouldn’t it be a question of your judgment. Wouldn’t your virtue be questionable?
McCain support Chalibli and is being called to task on it. Obama went to a church that advocated the “destruction of the white enemy”, shouldn’t his judgment be questioned? Shouldn’t his values be examined? Not all destruction has to take place with high explosives, does it?
I question whether or not we share the same values. The “branch” of Christianity that I practice doesn’t seem to share much with the theology of the church Obama attended. If someone went once and said, I don’t agree I would buy that. But after 20 years of attending, reading bulletins, talking to other church members, etc; Am I to believe that Obama didn’t know?
Again, after repeatedly attending is he Telling the truth or lying about what he believes ?
I’ll go back to the 2nd amendment.
Think about this, Obama thinks the Constitution grants rights. It doesn’t, it only limits the power of the government to intrude on those rights. The Heller decision most recently, but other court cases have confirmed this…the Bill of Rights is a limit on the government power, not a giver of rights.
So Obama says on the campaign trail he believes in an individual right to keep and bear arms….is that what about what he did before?
Sorry, but what he has done repeatedly shows to be inconsistent with what he says now.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Ken– Ah, the time-honored “murdering babies” smear. Sure you want to go there?
Video Shows Afghan Children Dead After U.S. Raid
October 7th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Obama needs to come clean about his association with William Ayres instead of attacking people for asking the question. Even CNN’s Anderson Cooper has said Obama is not being truthful about his association. I am sure McCain is going to bring it up tonight during the debate. Lets see how Obama answers it. I bet he will dance around it or simply lie through his teeth. If Obama downplays his relationship with Ayres he will prove himself to a damned liar.
You know William Ayres is a sore point for Obama because he has especially attacked groups and individuals who have brought it up and has even called for federal investigations of reporters, other individuals and groups to intimidate them into silence. He has even threatened TV stations with their licenses if they run commercials about his association with the unrepentant domestic terrorist.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:55 am
Ken:
There you go again … it’s going to be a long 8 years for you!
October 7th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Please provide documentation of this, Richard.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Bob S.– How many people died because of the actions of Ahmed Chalabi? How many died because of Reverend Wright?
Ken — Senator Obama has answered every question about William Ayres. This smear has been investigated for months by every news organization in America. It’s talked about incessantly on Faux News.
The story now is about the GOP hitting rock bottom. Nowhere to go. Total desperation at losing power.
jd– Check out the handy link I provided. Make a mouse click over the part that’s underlined in the first sentence of my comment.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:05 am
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October 7th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Richard,
So Obama doesn’t have to answer for his multiple year association with Ayers because Ayers lucked out and no one was murdered due to the bombing?
How about Ayers associate who was killed building a bomb?
But McCain supported Chalibli……and the ENTIRE House and Senate who voted for and approved the authorization to use force gets a pass….except for McCain?
Obama doesn’t have to discuss how he can sit in a church for 20 years listening t a preacher but not hear any hatred, not see the Black Liberation theology on the website, not answer for how Wright repeatedly preached hate and the destruction of a race of people…because no one directly linked any deaths to him?
Is that what you are saying?
October 7th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Bob S.– It’s an apples and oranges comparison to talk about the October 2002 AUMF, which politicized the Iraq situation just before an election, and Senator McCain’s long-standing support for Ahmed Chalabi, going back to at least 1991.
All questions about the Republican made-up smears against Senator Obama have already been answered. Completely and thoroughly. Every news organization has milked these allegations as much as they milked the 2004 Swiftboat smears, for months now. There’s no substance to them.
Maybe now it’s time to talk about the Keating Five scandal and the Savings and Loan Crisis that cost taxpayers $125 billion. Thousands of people lost their life savings because de-regulated S&Ls engaged in unsound real estate speculation. Senator McCain apologized for his role in creating the crisis, but did he learn anything?
October 7th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Richard,
By your own standard Keating 5 is dead and buried.
Hasn’t it been already answered, every news organization milked the allegations?
Can’t have it both ways Sir. Either Obama faces the issues again and again or you let the McCain issues lay because they’ve been covered, right?
It’s not apples to oranges comparison though, It’s about the values both men possess and how they act on those values.
McCain voted to give people a chance at freedom based on his principles. Obama Then after saying he could no more repudiate Rev. Wright then his own white grandmother, Obama did repudiate him. What does it say about Obama’s values?
Political expedience?
Obama worked with Ayers on the foundation, had fundraisers and kick off parties at the man’s house….then claimed not to know him that well. What does that say about the value of Obama’s friendship? Or even if not friendship, what message does it send to those who want to be partners with America, to those who want to work with America? Would Obama cast them aside as easily?
I won’t vote for Obama for many reason, his principles, his views, his policies and especially his proven stance on the 2nd amendment.
By the way….which position of Obama’s do you support? The ban of handguns or that it’s an individual right?
Do you agree with Obama that the 2nd amendment “creates an individual” right?
October 7th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Bob S.– You missed my point. The Keating Five scandal hasn’t even been mentioned in the 2008 campaign until just the other day. I don’t think it’s fair to talk about Senator Obama’s past associations without also bringing up Senator McCain’s far more damaging and relevant past associations.
You know what, I don’t really care about whether people own guns or not. I just feel sorry for them and their families.
October 7th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Richard,
No I didn’t miss the point. McCain has ran for office before, it’s been discussed before.
So, if you say the “smears have been answered” haven’t the Keating 5 smears been answered?
Can’t have it both ways? Obama’s associations haven’t been covered in past presidential runs, so if the Keating 5 association is open for McCain’s run this time, so is Obama’s. Right?
Bring up the Keating 5 this cycle, bring it up every cycle. I want people to start learning about the officials we elect. Want those officials to realize their past can’t be escaped, but that includes both parties.
Let’s make it tough for people to be elected. Let’s make it difficult for people to commit “lapses in judgment” to forget them. Let the people know what type of actions and deeds their elected representatives have done.
But make it fair.
October 7th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Bob S.– I agree. Let’s have fair criticism of the candidates. Let’s find out everything about them. Barack Obama has been under a media microscope since winning the Iowa caucuses. McCain has not.
Charles Keating spent more than four years in prison after being convicted of fraud, racketeering, and conspiracy. William Ayers was convicted of… oh, wait, looks like the charges were dropped!
John McCain spent time palling around with Keating. In fact, he took his family on Keating’s jet to vacation at Keating’s private Bahama resort on Keating’s private island on nine occasions. Barack Obama did not know about Ayers’s background when he attended a campaign reception at his house in 1995. Obama and Ayers were never friends.
October 7th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Richard,
Let’s be fair, was Ayers guilty or not? Not by a court of law, but your opinion, his words?
Did he do the things he was accused of?
Even then the FBI was violating civil rights, in this case their violations cost them the conviction. Don’t you agree?
As far as being under the microscope, I would support that position if this was McCain’s first time running. But even you have to admit that every election cycle the Keating issue is brought up.
October 7th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Bob S. — I don’t know what Ayers was guilty of 40 years ago. As far as I know he was just another anti-government loudmouth back then. Plenty of people were angry about the Vietnam War.
Barack Obama didn’t know Ayers was a former radical– the guy was known in Chicago as a college professor and education adviser to Mayor Richard M. Daley.
You have to admit that the S&L Crisis and Keating Five are relevant to judging McCain’s ability to understand banking and real estate, the factors that led to the huge economic crisis the nation is now caught up in.
October 7th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Richard,
Sorry if I don’t accept that Obama didn’t know and if he didn’t know, what does it say about his friends and associates? People that he should have counted on to clue him in.
Yes, I’ll admit that the S&L crisis are relevant.
Did it work back then, how well did it work, etc? I was much younger then and not political active but I remember thinking how wrong it was for the government to bail out the S&Ls then. I think it was wrong for the government to bail out now.
But as I mature, I’ve learned. It does upset me that both Obama and McCain voted for the bailout. Doesn’t seem like anyone’s learned from the past.
October 7th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Bob S.– You can read about the S&L fiasco. I remember it hit Utah really hard, lots of people lost their savings. Ironically, former Senator Jake Garn (R-UT) was chairman of the Senate Banking Committee and deserved a big share of the blame. The crisis was far more contained than the current one, of course.
October 7th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Here’s a quick video on the S&L fiasco.
BTW - Richard? Your link on the 1993/1994 McCain votes to “against making “bombings, arson and blockades at abortion clinics, and shootings and threats of violence against doctors and nurses who perform abortions” federal crimes.” are either to another blog post or dead.
I’ll need better evidence than that.
October 7th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Ah - the link to jedwhatever finally loaded (link to another blog post?) and through that I finally kinda found some text to the law.
This is the part of it that I’d definitely object to:
Can you imagine that being applied equally across the board? When the Iraq war began, protestors chained themselves to doors of Federal Buildings, blocked access to wharfs, freeways, streets and office buildings. During the Free Speech movement, students famously blocked access to and occupied campus buildings. Tree sitters and enviro-folks block access to logging roads and forestland.
And this is worth 6 months and $10 grand for a first offense? And a FELONY for a second?
Damn right he voted against it.
October 8th, 2008 at 5:09 am
Bekkieann,
A trick question is generally one that has no correct answer. My question to you was what is called a hypothetical question that not only had a RIGHT and WRONG answer but was also designed to expose your unwillingness to apply your judgments in a non-hypocritical fashion. When the right talks about people on the left drinking the “coolaid,” you are a simple example. I purposely crafted that question because I knew you were a die hard abortionist and I knew it would be the one most likely to put it into perspective for you. I also know that you would not answer it because to do so would force a cataclysmic shift in your concept of reality.
Assume for a second that Obama is no better than the bumbling depiction of Bush from the left and truly was the only one in his political circle that didn’t know Ayer’s was a terrorist. What kind of a President would Obama make if he continually rubs elbows with Marxist’s and terrorists and has no idea? You don’t seem to be willing to understand that no one is saying that Obama supports domestic terrorism but that he had to know who he was because EVERYONE else politically connected with Ayers knew exactly who he was.
Now all we have to figure out is; whether or not you would even turn against Obama for bombing an abortion clinic. Don’t feel bad Bekkieann Left Wingers like yourself are notorious for turning a blind eye to the transgressions of their own party members. The only other possibility is that to you abortion clinics are like holy ground and you wouldn’t mind if everyone in the Pentagon suffered a fiery death.
October 8th, 2008 at 5:11 am
Oh, I almost forgot this joke that Rush was saying yesterday over and over again.
What does Osama bin Laden and Barrack Obama have in common?
They both know someone who has bombed the Pentagon!
Isn’t that just hilarious? (sarcasm implied)
October 8th, 2008 at 5:35 am
RO, the trick to the question is that it is based on a hypothetical. Any answer I might give would feed into your theory. Even a non-answer. You are quite a clever debater, RO.
Thanks for all the psychoanalysis. However, ever since I read the post where you felt it necessary to advertise your IQ, I take you a lot less seriously. I think you are more interested in winning the argument even though you are not all that personally convinced. A grownup version of debate class.
I do need to explain something to you RO, I am not an “abortionist”. I favor a woman’s choice. I have never been faced with that difficult decision myself. However, some close to me have been, and I do understand the extreme difficulty of the decision. I believe we need to continue to allow abortions to be legal and safe, but rare. I could say that till kingdom come, and you’ll never get it and continue to apply inflamatory labels to me.
Now let’s talk about a solution to this problem that troubles you so: insurance companies that cover Viagra also covering birth control for women.
October 8th, 2008 at 9:30 am
David Talbot of Salon makes the case that Sarah Palin is the most un-American candidate in this race.
Before his strange murder in 1993, AIP founder Vogler preached armed insurrection against the United States of America. Sponsored by the government of Iran, Vogler was scheduled to make a speech at the United Nations denouncing the USA.
October 8th, 2008 at 10:29 am
And how many government buildings did this Vogler guy bomb?
October 8th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Clearly you know that this is a myth, don’t you?
October 8th, 2008 at 10:52 am
JD, I had not seen the information you reference, but I suspect it is far different in Utah. Do you have evidence to the contrary? I know a lot of women and I don’t know anyone whose insurance covers contraception — including my own insurance which is considered one of the best in the state.
The FactCheck articles hedges a bit on the accuracy of its information. However, if this information proves to be true, perhaps that explains why abortion rates have declined to their lowest rates since 1974.
October 8th, 2008 at 11:11 am
jd– Palin is currently a supporter of AIP. On their home page is the quote:
OTOH, Barack Obama was never a supporter of the Weather Underground. He was eight years old back then.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Richard - your link does not support your assertion. The AIP has already stated that she was not a member of the AIP.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
bekkieann,
Utah is one of 26 states that do not MANDATE contraception coverage.
http://www.statehealthfacts.org/profileind.jsp?sub=114&rgn=46&cat=7
Blue Cross in Utah includes prescription contraceptives and excludes non-prescription contraceptives. http://www.healthinsuranceinutah.com/Blue_Cross_Brochure_2007.pdf
Humana covers oral contraceptives only. http://www.healthinsuranceinutah.com/HumanaOne_Brochure_2007.pdf
Select Health doesn’t say if they cover contraception. However, they do NOT provide benefits for Sexual Dysfunction. http://www.healthinsuranceinutah.com/SelectHealth_Brochure_2007.pdf
Altius didn’t have an online brochure (I’ve limited time to research).
Two out of the 4 I looked at provide oral contraception benefits. That’s not bad. Vote with your wallet.
Now, what if insurers were allowed to offer their products across state lines? Would increased competition for your health care dollar benefit you?
Interestingly, the feds in 1999 ordered New York and other states to cover Viagra under Medicaid. Apparently, the Federal Medicaid law also says that states must cover ”family-planning services and supplies,” widely understood to include birth control pills and other contraceptives.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
just lost 2 posts to the spam filter!
October 8th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
jd– Palin is a strong supporter of AIP. I didn’t say she was a member.
In a video message to the AIP’s 2008 state convention Palin asserted that the AIP “plays an important role in our state’s politics” and said she “share[s] your party’s vision of upholding the constitution of our great state.” Palin stated:
October 8th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Richard, can you retrieve my trapped in spam comment?
Palin’s welcome video to the AIP is pretty benign. Sound’s like a pretty typical welcome address to a State focused organization. She says nothing about secession or AIP’s proposed vote for secession. Also, since the AIP is the third largest political party in Alaska, as a politician, she better show them some respect, eh?
Oh, you failed to mention how many bombs they’ve set off in government buildings….
October 8th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Richard,
How many welcoming messages like that does a governor, in particular does Palin, do a year? Does the governor have to support each and every organization they welcome?
Let’s look a little more at the AIP, just to be fair. I haven’t seen much about what they truly believe in post here.
First is it a secessionist movement:
Voter fraud, Election Fraud…Anyone out there (you know who you are) going to jump on that issue?
Does the AIP have an admirable goal?
Less governmental interference, I’m starting to see what their platform hasn’t been discussed here.
Speaking of platform (forced segue, I know minus 2 style points)
I think many of these are very interesting:
Anyone want to argue that is an extreme point of view?
I like this one
Of course this one is good
This one is even better:
Sound like something conservatives on this site have argued for, even some liberals want that, don’t you?
Of course, I think the liberals have a big problem with this one…must send the kids to the government sponsor indoctrination camps….I mean public school system.
Another biggie some liberals won’t like
What’s wrong with finding out what the government is allowed to and keeping it limited to that? It doesn’t allow the government to stick its nose into the private business of the citizens is what. I can see how people who see the government as the answer to every problem wouldn’t like that plank.
I like this one also, I wish more people knew about Jury nullification!
Are there other planks in the platform a little more extreme, yes but nothing that other parties - Green, Libertarian, etc haven’t advocated at one time or another.
October 8th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
You guys are funny. What if Barack Obama had supported a group that prominently stated on its website, “I’ve got no use for America or her damned institutions”? What would you say then?
AIP proudly claimed Governor Palin as a member of their party until the McCain campaign told them to issue a retraction.
October 8th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Bekkieann,
I tried to post a reply but it got caught in the spam filter. I guess it was all the links to references.
Here’s the post with the links removed.
bekkieann,
Utah is one of 26 states that do not MANDATE contraception coverage.
(link removed)
Blue Cross in Utah includes prescription contraceptives and excludes non-prescription contraceptives. (link removed)
Humana covers oral contraceptives only. (link removed)
Select Health doesn’t say if they cover contraception. However, they do NOT provide benefits for Sexual Dysfunction. (link removed)
Altius didn’t have an online brochure (I’ve limited time to research).
Two out of the 4 I looked at provide oral contraception benefits. That’s not bad. Vote with your wallet.
Now, what if insurers were allowed to offer their products across state lines? Would increased competition for your health care dollar benefit you?
Interestingly, the feds in 1999 ordered New York and other states to cover Viagra under Medicaid. Apparently, the Federal Medicaid law also says that states must cover ”family-planning services and supplies,” widely understood to include birth control pills and other contraceptives.
October 8th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Two out of four is fair, but encouraging.
October 8th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Note that of the 4, I couldn’t find a brochure on one and the other one didn’t mention contraceptives at all.
So, it’s more like 2 out of 4 concrete yes’s. The others are unknown.
Anyway, since States regulate insurance - shouldn’t it be a State gig?
October 8th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Altius covers Oral and injectable contraceptives drugs; contraceptive diaphragms and IUD’s; FDA approved prescription drugs and devices for birth control
that’s 3 outta 4
You must have the other one. :)
NB: For some reason, it’s common that insurance companies won’t cover IUDs and diaphragms. Maybe it’s because they are available without a prescription.
October 8th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Thanks for all the info, JD. We are way off topic here, and this thread is three days old. I’m dropping off now. See ya on another thread. Thanks again.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:28 am
Bekkieann,
(Because if it’s length, this post is in two parts to avoid the spam filter)
First I want to say that I don’t write and choose subjects or positions to simply win a debate. My personal philosophies have been formed over many years and have even changed when confronted with a valid argument. Ultimately, my prior question was not a trick but designed to force you into not just a stance on an issue but into a broader philosophy. This technique is at the core of Cliff’s preferred Socratic discussion method. It uses logic steps where you propose a hypothetic stance similar to one taken by you opponent then use a logic inference, if one is true then the other must be true approach. The opponent must then either give up their stance of propose a new philosophy by which both statements may coexist. I simply used the idea of McCain being friendly with an abortion clinic bomber to illustrate that your position of disregarding Obama’s affiliation is inconsistent and illogical. You are correct that even the fact that you declined to address the issue does point to an elemental flaw in your reasoning and over riding political philosophy.
Your stance reminds me of an incident several year ago back in Nebraska. Being from Nebraska I am a huge Cornhuskers fan. That said, several years ago, one of the players was charged and arrested for assaulting and dragging his girl friend down the stairs. Instantly, many die hard fans came to the player’s defense in knee jerk attempt to protect their favorite team. These people were so blinded by their obsession with Nebraska football that they were unwilling to see what a terrible act the player had committed and some even went on the offensive and began bashing the young victim of the crime. I believe many Obama supporters, possibly even yourself have taken a similar stance in support of your candidate.
October 9th, 2008 at 8:29 am
Bekkieann,
(part2)
Now to Abortion.
I know this thread is not about this subject, but I want to clarify something. I am sorry that you are offended at the “inflammatory label” of Abortionist that I have given you. I must however point out that if you support abortion and your actions or inactions help to keep abortion legal then you are an Abortionist. We all need to accept responsibility for our political leanings. Also, I should point out that if you truly believed that a fetus in the womb wasn’t a human life then there would be no offense on your behalf to be had. If it’s not a human life then why is it a difficult decision? It should be no different then going to get your nails trimmed at a nail salon. The very fact that you and Obama say that abortion is a difficult decision illustrates that somewhere in the back of your minds you know that on this issue you may be wrong. Can you ever imagine an Abolitionist back in the day of slavery being offended at being called an Abolitionist? If you support abortion your stance leads to political decisions that keep abortion legal, therefore you are an Abortionist. While you may not be performing the abortions yourself, they could not be performed without you help and support. If you truly believe that Roe v. Wade is a right and correct ruling by the Supreme Court, you should wear the title of Abortionist with pride.
Finally, I am sorry that I felt compelled to reveal my IQ in a previous post. I truly questioned doing it at the time but was put into a position where I felt I needed to defend myself. Also, at the time I didn’t know that all personal information posted here would be immediately used against me. If it will help repair my image with you, I would like to note that IQ ratings have long been criticized as inaccurate because they often rely too heavily of learned information and not on a person’s ability to logically deduce are solve problems. In addition, IQ tests are timed end thus discriminate against those with dyslexia and other similar disorders. The timing of the tests also gives too much consideration to a person’s ability to deduce under pressure and at speed. To be truthful, IQ tests are not simply a measure of intelligence but a measure of a person’s ability to answer correctly under pressure. While two people may be able to answer the very same question correctly, the one who does it quicker is considered more intelligent by this bias in the test. Also, it should be stated that there are many aspects that make up a person and intelligence is a poor measure of most. Far more important than intelligence is Wisdom or that ability to adopt philosophies that can be applied to a broad range of situations.