Richard WarnickThe Angry Right
If I get any more b.s. about “the angry left” from right-wingers, I’m going to post a link to this video of Sarah Palin supporters a week ago in Pennsylvania…
Do they really believe Senator Obama is a “terrorist” and a “baby killer”? These people are so pissed off they can’t think straight anymore. The McCain-Palin campaign is deliberately stoking the anger and the racism.
UPDATE: Josh Marshall, on Talking Points Memo:
Yes, it looks good for the Democrats. But you need to play close attention to the McCain campaign’s final weeks’ strategy under and just above the radar. McCain’s final strategy relies on two pillars. The first is aggressively playing to voters’ fears of electing a black president. Make no mistake: not just his campaign in a general sense, but McCain himself and his top handful of advisers, are banking on the residual racism in a changing America to get them over the finish line. The second is an aggressive use of innuendo to convince casual voters that Obama is in league with Islamic terrorists bent on killing Americans.
Many people have asked whether enough Americans really care any more about the cultural convulsions of the 1960s. The answer? It doesn’t matter. For the McCain campaign, Bill Ayers has nothing to do with 60s radicalism. Ayers is nothing more than a tool that permits McCain, Palin and all their surrogates to use the noun “terrorist” in polite company in the same sentence as “Obama,” over and over and over again. It allows them to cobble together a ‘respectable’ version of those Obama smear emails they can push in commercials and robocalls and surrogate talking points every hour of every day.
Stripped down to its components McCain’s message to voters is this: “Don’t forget. He’s definitely black. And he may be a terrorist.” That’s the message.
UPDATE: Angry McCain supporters harass early voters in North Carolina.
As you can see from these videos, no one held anything back. People were shouting about Obama’s acknowledged cocaine use as a young man, abortion and one man used the word “terrorist.” They also were complaining that Sundays are for church, not voting.
October 18th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
It is always jarring to be reminded of the ugliest people America has too offer. I grew up in rural Pennsylvania. Not everyone is like that, but the further west you go…
What is more disturbing is that these types of people seem to be predominate at McCain rallies.
This country is in deep, deep doo-doo.
October 18th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
I too am from this area of the country but even closer than where Cliff grew up. I went to college in Johnstown and grew up just a half hour away. My father still lives there and is a republican. I recall a conversation I had with him recently about the candidates and the upcoming election. My Dad tried to console me with the thought that the US is stable enough to withstand another republican president should Obama lose. I told him I thought things were pretty bad right now, (this was before The Wall St. fall). He responded by saying, “If you don’t like it ,you can move”. After a week or so, he called me back to apologize and we agreed not to discuss politics until maybe after the election. My Dad, age 82, doesn’t like John McCain and refuses to vote for a president this year. But to my pleasant surprise he has voted for Congressman John Murtha.
October 18th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Right Wing Watch!!
Rumor has it that GOP operatives are mounting a whispering campaign in the inner-cities, and predominantly African-American areas, claiming that all registration forms submitted by ACORN have been nullified and it is now too late to re-register. Anyone who tries to vote may be arrested for voter fraud. The Obama campaign is urging all progressive minded people to be on alert and immediately notify them of any suspicious activities. Carl Rove and George Bush along with the McCain campaign will stop at nothing to keep a “black man” out of the White House. Barack Obama may be the man that finally destroys capitalism and ushers in a new day where everyone is equal and no one gets more or less than their fair share. capitalism, Zionism, and white privilege will forever be thrown down the trash heap of history. This is why Rove, Bush, McCain, Palin and their ilk would steal this election before they see our dream’s come to fruition.
October 18th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Good god, what is wrong with people?! It’s frightening.
October 18th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Lance
To hell with equality! I want to see Obama make the white man pay for a thousand years of oppression against our African, Muslim, and Native American Brothers and Sisters.
October 19th, 2008 at 7:54 am
Richard,
I think that this is a fine example of how extremes exist not just on the left but on the right as well. The question is; what do the moderates do in each party to marginalize these extreme elements? For example, what was the response to the many violent groups that protested the RNC? Also, Democrats have argued along with Obama that Obama will unit this country. Does this look like unity to anyone? I believe electing Obama would be no different than electing Bush to 4 more years. At least Bush didn’t start his presidency with such a rift. In fact, Bush still holds the record for the highest approval polls of any president in history. Is it possible in anyone’s mind that Obama will ever be able to do the same? I think if elected we will only get 4 more years of intense political bickering and regular calls for impeachment.
October 19th, 2008 at 8:48 am
RO:
You are kidding, right?
October 19th, 2008 at 8:56 am
R.O.– It looked to me that the violence in St. Paul was directed at the protests, and at the journalists who attempted to cover the protests. The “violent group” was the police.
President Bush’s brief period of high approval ratings was entirely due to the post-9/11 rally-around-the-flag effect. Before that, his poll numbers were sinking. After it became clear that Bush was intent on dividing America, his numbers went on a downward slide again. Overall he’s the least popular President ever.
Indeed, I expect we will get four years of political bickering and calls for impeachment– from the same people who blindly supported President Bush. Let’s hope President Obama can rise above the sleaze. For starters, I hope he issues an executive order to prohibit any administration official from appearing on Faux News Channel.
October 19th, 2008 at 9:05 am
First of all Okelberry, Bush stole both elections. He should never have been president.
And there will never be unity with religious fundamentalists. Religion is fundamentally undemocratic and people who put it first are unAmerican.
October 19th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Richard W.,
You are right; Bush’s numbers peaked following 9/11… So? What is your point; apparently the people liked his response. It is a myth that Bush’s numbers are now low because of the war. Bush’s numbers are low because he betrayed conservatives and started spending like a liberal. Now we have Obama who if elected will have done so by being against the war and war in general but has now flipped and is sounding more like a republican. Which will it be? Will he risk his political career by yanking troops out of Iraq and leaving the country devastated and America with what will look like a defeat? I doubt it and I’m certain you do to Richard. Sure he will try to end the conflict by next election but if he can’t do you think his numbers will be up or down?
I am consoled that you recognize that Obama will cause more division, not less in this country. Funny how you skipped acknowledging some of your more… Let’s say unstable brethren.
October 19th, 2008 at 10:32 am
Say it ain’t so Joe,
I know I am stealing a quote from James F., but “are you kidding?” See, I write a post about how both sides have their extremists and here comes someone still saying that Bush stole both election. Next thing you are going to say is that Cliff is right and 9/11 was planned by Bush/Cheney. WhoooHooo… Crazy Guy Alert! The meds are on the table brother.
Then to cap it off you display yourself to be a religious bigot, “Religion is fundamentally undemocratic and people who put it first are unAmerican.” Cliff is that you in there? (knock… knock… knock…) You do know that even the Marine’s put God before country, right? I guess by you reckoning, those sworn to protect freedom with their lives are typically un-American also. Do I need to point out again that only ONE candidate has made religion a corner stone of his campaign? Obama!
If you hate people of faith Joe, maybe you should begin with your own messiah!
What do you want to bet that this response will bring all the “Bush Stole the Presidency,” liberal fanatics out of the woodwork? This should be fun, delusion is such a fun play thing..
October 19th, 2008 at 10:39 am
RO:
People did like the post 9/11 response of invading Afghanistan, but that is where it ended. Bush got cocky, lied to the nation and invaded Iraq. Bad idea, too many innocents killed and the cost was too high, his support went into the toilet. Don’t try and separate the uncontrolled spending from the Iraq war, it makes you look foolish.
PS What would you have Obama do when elected president? Or can you even get beyond the fact that a black man will be your leader come January 2009?
October 19th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Okelberry,
I didn’t say I hate religious people, I said it is unAmerican to put our religion before one’s responsibility as a citizen. I am Catholic.
Americans don’t elect religious leaders.
I think you are wrong to say Marines put God before Country. I’m quite sure I can find you a shit load of Marines who would disagree with you.
October 19th, 2008 at 11:17 am
Richard Okelberry wrote:
Um, no. Americans desperately hoped against hope that our under-achieving President would be able to get his act together and defend our country. Remember, on September 11, 2001 Bush ran away and hid in an underground bunker in Nebraska.
Out of true patriotism, I reluctantly supported the attack on Afghanistan. That seemed to go well initially despite the lack of boots on the ground, thanks to the CIA and GPS-guided bombs. Then Bush gave up on trying to put al-Qaeda out of business because he always wanted to invade Iraq– which had nothing to do with 9/11. Afghanistan was forgotten, most of all when Bush got the idea of an Iraq “surge” that cut off badly needed reinforcements for the Afghan war.
R.O., you are still equating withdrawal from Iraq with “defeat.” Don’t you know that the Bush administration has already agreed to a set timetable for ending the Iraq occupation?
Three years ago, Rep. John Murtha went public with the professional officer consensus– post-Saddam, there is nothing for the U.S. to achieve militarily in Iraq. We’ve wasted three years proving him right.
October 19th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Say it ain’t so Joe,
The statement, “God, Country, Family,” is one of the credos of the U.S. Marine Corps. Also I invite you to show me a single statement by the Catholic Church that calls for its member’s to place duty to Country and the laws of man before God. If you believe yourself to truly understand Catholic Doctrine I am more than up for a theological debate on this subject. Let me guess, you’re about to throw out the Biblical passage, “give unto Caesar…” You really might want to take up this question with you priest before going down the road of misrepresenting your faith. In fact, your prior declaration. Also, if Americans don’t elect religious leaders, why are you voting for a man that has taken it upon himself to give lengthy dissertations on religion along with regular testimonies about faith. Sounds like a religious leader to me… What it your definition?
I will assume unless you tell me different that by virtue of your faith as a Catholic that calls you to place God above all things that you by your own definition consider yourself un-American…
October 19th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
James,
We’ve been over this James… While Bush may have placed an emphasis on weak intelligence, it is a LIE to say he lied. Don’t believe me? Prove (as in evidence) that he knew before hand that one bit of information was completely false. Also, you display yourself as a stereotypical liberal when you have to try and win an argument inferring that I am a racist. Is this the best you can do James? You are beginning to sound a lot like the people in the video above. How about I call you a wimp now for using reactionary rhetoric and we’ll be even? WIMP! Don’t believe you’re a wimp James? Heeheehheehee (that’s me laughing heartily at you!)
To your P.S. – Obama will do exactly what McCain or Bush will do in Iraq. He’ll keep the troops there until the Iraqis can maintain peace. The only difference is Obama lied to you all to get the nomination and continue the war. I’ll say it again… Suckers! You tried to elect a peace nick and got a candidate that in the last debate invoked the “Bush doctrine” WORD for WORD! Did you also hear that he would restrict late term abortions also? Oh crap… that goes against Roe v. Wade doesn’t it? Maybe he thinks a baby in the womb is human life after all… Man he’s sounding very Republican these days. Isn’t it a terrible day when you have to hope and pray your candidate it lying again?
October 19th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Richard,
I can’t believe that you are arguing that Bush should have exposed the Presidency to an attack. Bush was following protocol that had been in place for decades in case of an attack on the U.S. This is the same protocol that will take over if an attack occurs during any future Obama Presidency. Maybe you think that Obama should be more brave than Bush and drop his secret service contingency. You know that was a weak statement, Richard.
Explain what you mean when you say, “out of true patriotism.” What makes your support for the illegal war in Afghanistan patriotic? Last I looked, the Taliban, who was the legitimate and legal government in Afghanistan never attacked the U.S. Isn’t this starting to sound familiar? You sound like one of those war mongers that caused the death of so many innocent men women and most importantly children. R U a murder, Richard? R U now willing to continue your murderous spree by leaving the people of Iraq and Afghanistan unprotected by bringing our troops home. Is that how you spell VICTORY, Dead kids in Iraq? Kill… Kill… Kill…
We already know from prior discussions that you disagree with both Biden and Obama about using troops for humanitarian efforts and fighting terrorists, so why would your position change when it comes to using troops to maintain law and order? What do you consider Victory in Iraq and Afghanistan, Richard?
Finally, your refusal to admit that there are crazies on the left as well as the right, makes me suspect that you sir might just be one of the left-wing-extremists. What do you say?
October 19th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
R.O.– You’re going off the rails and departing from the standard right-wing talking points, which is alright I guess… except you’re going off the rails. It’s a typical right-wing canard that Senator Obama’s campaign is all based on lies– that’s what they do, accuse the other side of what the GOP is doing. You are the first person I’ve encountered who actually claims that an Obama administration will uphold the Bush Doctrine and continue an indefinite occupation of Iraq.
As I previously pointed out, the Bush administration has already agreed to end the Iraq occupation by June and remove all U.S. troops from the country by December 31, 2011. That’s a date certain, not a contingency. It’s what the Bush administration always called a “surrender date.”
Now, a dishonest person could say that President Obama will be continuing Bush’s policy. In reality, there is a new Iraq policy based on what Democrats and the majority of Americans (not to mention Iraqis!) have demanded loudly for two years or more. There’s a good reason: the presence of U.S. soldiers on the streets of Iraq doesn’t promote security, it causes more violence. We are not protecting Iraqis, we’re killing them and they are trying to get us back.
Unlike the invasion of Iraq, the Afghanistan war was launched in response to an attack on the USA. Don’t pretend you don’t know that– makes you look uninformed, to say the least. The United Nations and NATO have been with us all the way in Afghanistan. U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan said that the Iraq invasion was a breach of the U.N. Charter.
The prosecution of the Afghanistan war, the third longest war in U.S. history by the way, has suffered from bad strategy coming out of Washington. I’d like to see that fixed. NATO and the USA are not welcome in Afghanistan, and our proper role is to hunt down al-Qaeda and its allies, not to “maintain law and order.” Not waiting for us, the Afghan government is already negotiating with the Taliban in the hope of finding a political accommodation. That’s how we’ll get out of Afghanistan, eventually. You really ought to read my One Utah posts, I’ve actually answered your questions weeks ago.
I’ll tell you what a real leader would have done on September 11, 2001. He would have flown to Washington, D.C. right away. The Secret Service is a nice excuse, but this wasn’t a nuclear attack– it was just 19 terrorists. Why should our leaders be freaking out underground when the rest of us are looking for reassurance that the situation is under control?
Last– I’ve heard all about the “loony left” from right-wingers. I don’t know those people, and I’m not a “leftist” so you shouldn’t be surprised. I’m a registered Republican. Present solid evidence (or any evidence) of “crazies on the left” and who knows, I might accept it.
October 19th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Richard W,.
AH… now we are getting somewhere. If your looking to me as someone who supports the way Bush has conducted these wars, you are looking to the wrong man. I am simply pointing out that Obama, McCain nor would Bush ever pull out troops if it would destabilize things in Iraq or Afghanistan. The dream that Obama peddled early in his candidacy to the gullible left is just that a dream. It doesn’t take into account political realities. Any President that leaves Iraq in the same mess we left Vietnam will certainly have no future in politics. This is a reality.
Certainly we disagree on what the appropriate roll of our military forces in a modern world. I not only have no problem using the military for humanitarian needs and to stop or prevent genocide like was occurring in Iraq prior to the war. Also, I feel that using our military to make pre-emptive strikes against known terrorist threats against both us and our allies is completely appropriate, with or without the permission of a host government. You on the other hand seem to only want to use the military to react to attacks against the homeland. I should note that both Obama and Biden have taken my position in their debates.
As far as you being registered as a Republican, I haven’t taken such pleasure and have been registered as Undeclared for over 10 years. Also, I should note that I didn’t vote for Bush in either election and instead opted for 3rd part candidates. I must admit that I have been forming a plan to join the Democrat Party for about 5 years now. Doing so back in Lincoln, Nebraska would have been futile because far left Democrats there are far too organized and numerous. But here in Utah where Democrats are so weak and pretend to be conservative, I figure I can get a foothold in the local Party and recruit others to bring real change to a party that is rapidly spiraling toward full on socialism.
Wouldn’t it be interesting if someday we debated, you as a Republican, I as a Democrat? That would be funny and would likely leave a lot of people scratching their heads.
A couple final questions: Are you arguing that the Bush administration now moving towards a deadline in Iraq is an example of how Dems are right on the issue? Does this mean you are conceding Bush is right on the issue? Are you supporting Bush the way Dems did on the bail out, Richard?
And you wonder why Bush is so unpopular among both Liberals and Conservatives. He never makes Dems happy because they HATE him, and he alienates his own base by pandering.
October 19th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
As many, many experts have pointed out, our military is capable of destabilizing pretty much any country. They are not capable of stabilizing Iraq or Afghanistan– that’s up to the people who live there. And the locals cannot settle their differences if they are being occupied by foreign troops. Read some of Nir Rosen’s reporting. The occupation was the catalyst for the Iraqi civil war.
Your Vietnam analogy is very strange. It took America’s leaders a very long time to realize the fate of Vietnam was inevitably in the hands of the Vietnamese. You seem to be saying that our troops should not have been withdrawn, maybe they would still be there now according to McCain’s “100 years” idea of how long an occupation ought to last. Would you prefer that hypothetical situation to the relationship the USA now has with Vietnam?
Circumstances have finally forced the Bush administration to do the right thing in Iraq, just as circumstances forced them to partially nationalize our banking system. It’s just not credible to argue that President Bush would go along with either plan if he had a choice!
October 19th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
RO:
Hmm. You call Obama a liar and Bush a non-liar? You are out to lunch, dude!
October 20th, 2008 at 3:51 am
James,
Look above James and you will see Richard and I having an actual discussion about a topic. You seem to prefer throwing out little quips instead of engaging. If you would like to participate I’d invite you to do so.
I have merely said that your example of Bush lying is inaccurate and pointed out that the Obama that ran against Hillary has all but disappeared. Has Bush lied? I’m sure if you stopped and thought for a second you could think of some actual untruths he has told, but the WMD’s thing is a bad example. It is well documented that Bush believed with his heart and soul that Iraq had stockpiled WMDs. If it was a lie it was one that was told to him as well.
Now did Obama lie? The better question is, when didn’t he? Take away policy changes since the primary for just a second and look back to the last debate. Obama claims that the extent of his relationship with ACORN was that he represented them once as legal council. Even CNN is reporting now on the top of every hour that this was a bold faced lie to the American people. His relationship has been extensive. He even did some leadership training for them and paid the almost a million bucks to do some special “voter registration” less than a year ago. We know with all certainty that Obama is a Big Fat Liar. The question is; does a single Democrat care? I’ve begun to think that there might not be a single Democrat that cares about whether their candidates has integrity. It is one thing to stretch the truth and even embellish. But to tell something that is completely untrue about a relationship with a truly controversial organization let alone a domestic terrorist should be completely unacceptable. Let me guess, you are still buying that Ayers was just a “guy in the neighborhood,” right? Did Mr. Obama tell you that Ayers wife worked at the same law firm that he was first hired at?
It’s kind of like my analogy of the football player back at Nebraska that drug his girlfriend down the stairs. Many were coming to his defense and even talking smack about the girl friend. To some, all that mattered was that the team won the game that weekend and they were willing to turn a blind eye to almost anything to ensure victory. Is your team winning, James?
October 20th, 2008 at 4:43 am
Richard W.,
The war in Iraq is quickly coming to an end as is evidenced by the drop in casualties since the surge. In fact our troops are currently safer in Iraq then on the streets of many U.S. cities. I would argue that our troops have stabilized Iraq against the advice of many pundits who opposed the war and have successfully created a situation where Iraqi troops and police are taking control of more and more of their own country. Of course this would not be the case if we had conducted a rapid retreat two years ago when the insurgency was at its peek and individuals like you and Obama were calling for an immediate end to the war.
There have been many mistakes in this war, but many of those mistakes were caused by arm chair quarterbacking by politicians the way that similar mistakes were made in Vietnam. Our lack of victory in Vietnam was not caused by the overwhelming force, presented by North Vietnam. It was caused by politicians who refused to allow our military to defeat the enemy. We now also know that many of the peace protests during Vietnam were being orchestrated by communist sympathizers and socialists who saw the war as a way to bring a defeat to the United States. Do I need to bring up Ayers again? In the end, rather than fulfilling our commitment to the people of South Vietnam, we turned tail allowing one of the largest killing rampages in history to occur. Our absence from the region ultimately led to the killing fields in Cambodia also.
Have you ever even considered that your words since the beginning of the war in Iraq could have and may still lead to another such tragedy? When you say that the locals need to settle their differences, have you considered that those differences have a high probability of being settled at the bottom of a mass grave? Regardless of what anyone thinks of the reasons we went to war, we as a nation did so with the overwhelming support of the American people. Now we have a responsibility to ensure that we leave Iraq as stable as possible.
As far as your theory that our military has caused a civil war in Iraq, I want you to consider that our mere presence does not justify the bombing of Mosques. I have heard this argument before. It is no different than if we were to blame the police for violent crime and rape in our inner cities. Your logic is flawed on this issue, Richard. If it held water, you would also be able to say that pulling our domestic military (police) out of gang ravaged inner cities would allow the gangs to “work it out.” As a caveat, have you ever noticed that basically every epicenter of violent crime in the U.S. is in area controlled by liberal politicians?
The main difference between you and I, Richard, is that I believe we have a moral responsibility to protect human rights not just here but abroad and intervene in all cases of genocide. For any of your arguments against this war to work you must first show that Saddam was not such a bad guy and should have been left alone. This is something you cannot do because every True human rights organization (Cliff’s phony ant-Bush group excluded) around the world has well documented his tyrannical reign and use of state sponsored terror.
October 20th, 2008 at 8:01 am
R.O– Your contention that President Bush “believed with his heart and soul that Iraq had stockpiled WMDs” may well be true, given his penchant for ignoring the facts. However, we have known for more than a year that on Sept. 18, 2002 Bush was actually briefed on top-secret intelligence that Saddam Hussein did NOT have weapons of mass destruction. This information wasn’t shared with the Congress. Whatever his personal belief, Bush lied about what the intelligence agencies told him.
I would note that Barack Obama’s issue positions have not changed since the primaries. It’s true that he abandoned the idea of accepting public financing, but that was a smart decision and not a flip-flop. In fact, Obama has made one smart strategic choice after another. I’ve never seen a national campaign with so few missteps. What a contrast to the McCain campaign, unsteady at the helm.
As for alleged Obama lies, give it up. He’s telling the truth, the Republicans are stretching the truth in some cases and lying in others. For example, the Bernardine Dohrn allegation is thin stuff. The law firm of Sidley & Austin employs more than 500 lawyers in their Chicago office alone. Michelle Obama worked there, not Barack. The McCain campaign alleged that it’s possible that Michelle might have met Bernardine Dohrn. That’s it. That’s the whole smear.
October 20th, 2008 at 8:31 am
“Did you also hear that he would restrict late term abortions also? Oh crap… that goes against Roe v. Wade doesn’t it?”
No, it doesn’t.
October 20th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Nope…no anger here….no way.
Cliffy? is that you?
October 20th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Does this count as “angry left”?
October 21st, 2008 at 7:42 am
Richard W,
Oh… Brother… You are only making my case for me. Your assumption that Obama has led a flawless campaign is only made if you accept as doctrine the reporting of the mainstream media. I believe it is not Obama’s campaign you are referring to but the lack of scrutiny in the media that you are referring to. Was Biden’s lie about being shot down in Afghanistan flawless? Or maybe you consider Michelle’s or Barracks Statements about redistribution of wealth as flawless. If he has been flawless, it has been in telling every constituency group what they want to hear while having faith the media wouldn’t take him to task when he shifts position. From the beginning the mainstream media has regularly ignored and in some cases out right excused mistakes by the Obama campaign. Unlike McCain and especially Palin whose histories have become common knowledge though the media “vetting” process, almost nothing has been reported about Obama’s past.
Two years after Ayer’s wife Bernadine Dohrn was hired, her law firm gave an internship to not his wife but Barack Obama himself! Obama’s wife was hired later. I bet you didn’t know this did you Richard? While you will likely dispute this FACT as thin, the fact that this has slipped by the media only illustrates that we are on the verge of electing the least scrutinized presidential candidate in history.
You also say Richard, that Obama didn’t lie about his past associations with ACORN but then accuse Bush of a lie of omission. Obama’s connections to ACORN are well documented and it is now certain that Obama lied when he stated his ONLY association with ACORN in was as legal representation in the debate. Obama lied directly to the American people during a national debate. It is a FACT and is indisputable.
Also, the information on Iraq that you say Bush ignored was never considered credible by any stretch of the imagination. The source was Iraq’s foreign minister. Perhaps you forgot how regularly Saddam used his “ministers” to tell lies on his behalf. This minister in particular had a long history of feed false information. Also, while Bush may have not passed this information on in a “package” to congress, all Intelligence briefings given to the president are “mirrored” to the Foreign Intelligence Committee. So Congress, was briefed!
Finally, don’t you find it strange that the media can park 10 satellite trucks outside of Joe the Plummer’s house yet we can’t get a single reporter asking Ayer’s and his wife about their association with Obama?
October 21st, 2008 at 7:53 am
Don,
You’re really not up to speed on the abortion debate and Obama’s statements are you? You see Roe v. Wade restricts late term abortions except when the health of the mother is at issue. This has been interpreted by abortionists to even mean the mental wellness of the mother. This is why girls can go to Dr. Tiller (the baby killer) in Kansas and tell him they are depressed so they can abort their baby at 8.5 months. While Obama in the past has fought any legislation that would stop this practice, saying he was defending Roe, since his campaign has been going and since he has been pressured on the issue, Obama has state that he would not support such abortions and allow them to be restricted. You can imagine that Pro-Choicers were not happy with his change of mind. The question is: has he simply changed his mind again? Or is he just pandering for votes?
Another topic you won’t see on CNN or MSNBC…
October 21st, 2008 at 8:36 am
R.O. — You are trying to pull rabbits out of a hat that hasn’t got any rabbits in it, and you, sir, are no magician.
Joe Biden never said his helicopter was shot down in Afghanistan. It was forced down by bad weather, which is what he said. It’s not about “redistribution of wealth,” as you well know. Senator Obama’s tax plan refunds taxes paid by working Americans (even if they pay no net income tax, all workers pay a payroll tax of more than 12 percent of their wages). On every issue, Obama has stayed remarkably consistent through the primaries and the general election (McCain has flipped on nearly every issue). The mainstream media has mercilessly gone after Obama on every flimsy accusation. Last April, ABC News hosted a “debate” devoted mostly to throwing mud at Obama. You say “almost nothing has been reported about Obama’s past.” Are you kidding? His whole life has been under a microscope ever since he won the Iowa caucuses.
The law firm smear is such thin stuff it’s not worth going into. Are the 500 lawyers in the Chicago office of Sidley & Austin all accomplices to terrorism? Come on!
ACORN is a perfectly legitimate organization that has done nothing wrong. John McCain was the keynote speaker at ACORN events two years ago.
The Iraqi Foreign Minister wasn’t the only pre-war source of correct information about that country’s total lack of WMD (why wasn’t Sabri’s picture on the deck of playing cards with the rest of Saddam’s henchmen? — he was working for the CIA). Saddam’s intelligence chief and his brother-in-law (who supervised Iraq’s weapons development programs from 1987 until he defected to Jordan) also talked to the CIA. Only a select few members of Congress were allowed to find out any of this, and they were prohibited from sharing what they knew. As you must know!
October 21st, 2008 at 8:55 am
Richard,
ACORN has done nothing wrong…many people would disagree
State Year Details
AR 1998 A contractor with ACORN-affiliated Project Vote was arrested for falsifying about 400 voter registration cards.
CO 2004 An ACORN employee admitted to forging signatures and registering three of her friends to vote 40 times.
2005 Two ex-ACORN employees were convicted in Denver of perjury for submitting false voter registrations.
FL 2004 A Florida Department of Law Enforcement spokesman said ACORN was “singled out” among suspected voter registration groups for a 2004 wage initiative because it was “the common thread” in the agency’s fraud investigations.
MI 2004 The Detroit Free Press reported that “overzealous or unscrupulous campaign workers in several Michigan counties are under investigation for voter-registration fraud, suspected of attempting to register nonexistent people or forging applications for already-registered voters.” ACORN-affiliate Project Vote was one of two groups suspected of turning in the documents.
MO 2007 Four ACORN employees were indicted in Kansas City for charges including identity theft and filing false registrations during the 2006 election.
2006 Eight ACORN employees in St. Louis were indicted on federal election fraud charges. Each of the eight faces up to five years in prison for forging signatures and submitting false information.
2003 Of 5,379 voter registration cards ACORN submitted in St. Louis, only 2,013 of those appeared to be valid. At least 1,000 are believed to be attempts to register voters illegally.
NC 2004 North Carolina officials investigated ACORN for submitting fake voter registration cards.
NM 2005 Four ACORN employees submitted as many as 3,000 potentially fraudulent signatures on the group’s Albuquerque ballot initiative. A local sheriff added: “It’s safe to say the forgery was widespread.”
2004 An ACORN employee registered a 13-year-old boy to vote. Citing this and other examples, New Mexico State Representative Joe Thompson stated that ACORN was “manufacturing voters” throughout New Mexico.
OH 2007 A man in Reynoldsburg was indicted on two felony counts of illegal voting and false registration, after being registered by ACORN to vote in two separate counties.
2004 A grand jury indicted a Columbus ACORN worker for submitting a false signature and false voter registration form. In Franklin County, two ACORN workers submitted what the director of the board of election supervisors called “blatantly false” forms. In Cuyahoga County, ACORN and its affiliate Project Vote submitted registration cards that had the highest rate of errors for any voter registration group.
MN 2004 During a traffic stop, police found more than 300 voter registration cards in the trunk of a former ACORN employee, who had violated a legal requirements that registration cards be submitted to the Secretary of State within 10 days of being filled out and signed.
PA 2008 An ACORN employee in West Reading, PA, was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison for identity theft and tampering with records. A second ACORN worker pleaded not guilty to the same charges and is free on $10,000 bail.
2004 Reading’s Director of Elections received calls from numerous individuals complaining that ACORN employees deliberately put inaccurate information on their voter registration forms. The Berks County director of elections said voter fraud was “absolutely out of hand,” and added: “Not only do we have unintentional duplication of voter registration but we have blatant duplicate voter registrations.” The Berks County deputy director of elections added that ACORN was under investigation by the Department of Justice.
TX 2004 ACORN turned in the voter registration form of David Young, who told reporters “The signature is not my signature. It’s not even close.” His social security number and date of birth were also incorrect.
VA 2005 In 2005, the Virginia State Board of Elections admonished Project Vote and ACORN for turning in a significant number of faulty voter registrations. An audit revealed that 83% of sampled registrations that were rejected for carrying false or questionable information were submitted by Project Vote. Many of these registrations carried social security numbers that exist for other people, listed non-existent or commercial addresses, or were for convicted felons in violation of state and federal election law.
In a letter to ACORN, the State Board of Elections reported that 56% of the voter registration applications ACORN turned in were ineligible. Further, a full 35% were not submitted in a timely manner, as required by law. The State Board of Elections also commented on what appeared to be evidence of intentional voter fraud. “Additionally,” they wrote, “information appears to have been altered on some applications where information given by the applicant in one color ink has been scratched through and re-entered in another color ink. Any alteration of a voter registration application is a Class 5 Felony in accordance with § 24.2-1009 of the Code of Virginia.”
WA 2007 Three ACORN employees pleaded guilty, and four more were charged, in the worst case of voter registration fraud in Washington state history. More than 2,000 fraudulent voter registration cards were submitted by the group during a voter registration drive.
WI 2004 The district attorney’s office investigated seven voter registration applications Project Vote employees filed in the names of people who said the group never contacted them. Former Project Vote employee Robert Marquise Blakely told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that he had not met with any of the people whose voter registration applications he signed, “an apparent violation of state law,” according to the paper.
October 21st, 2008 at 9:20 am
R.O. — This is standard GOP stuff. Harassing would-be voters when they try to register, nitpicking, doing everything they can think of to keep Democrats away from the polls.
October 21st, 2008 at 9:26 am
Bob:
From reading your cut-and-hack job re ACORN, it appears that most if not all of the incidents you note can be attributed to rouge employees, and not, as you suggest, to the organization itself. On the other hand, if you are ready to attribute to an organization actions of its employees, then let’s start with a reexamination of the W administration and then move on to the McCain campaign. Don’t want to go there? I didn’t think so. Your argument sucks!
October 21st, 2008 at 9:44 am
James,
What a pleasure to have such a high level of discourse with you.
Of course, if the vast number of issues involving ACORN are simply rogue employees what does it say about the organizations ability to train and control what it’s employees does?
By the way, wasn’t Obama one of those trainers for ACORN? Makes some of us wander what is being taught by the organization.
Here, is a hint for you….W isn’t running for re-election. Want to talk about the incidents of mis-behavior by the McCain campaign, go for it.
How about we talk about Obama releasing his donor database? You know the one showing where all the $604 million dollars really came from….people named Doodad Pro, etc?
October 21st, 2008 at 9:44 am
Check out the latest update on the post above: Angry McCain supporters harass early voters in North Carolina.
On the registration fraud front, John McCain’s campaign has directed $175,000 to the firm of a Republican operative accused of massive voter registration fraud in several states.
October 21st, 2008 at 10:24 am
RMWarnick,
First,
“The superhighway of terror between Pakistan and Afghanistan where my helicopter was forced down…John McCain wants to know where Bin Ladin and the gates of Hell are? I can tell him where. That’s where Al Quaida is. That’s where Bin Ladin is. It’s not in the country of Iraq.” – Biden
I see no reference to snow in this statement as you have said, rmwarnick. While Biden certainly knew why his helicopter went down he conveniently omitted it. We do however read many references to armed enemies in this quote. He is implying by this statement that Al Qaeda was where his helicopter went down. Even Sen. J. Kerry noted Biden’s delusions when he joked about Biden having a snowball fight with the Taliban. By Richard W’s measure of truth, this omission must be a lie.
Second,
When Michelle Obama and Barrack Obama both have used the phrase, “Spread the Wealth.” What do you read that to mean? Is there some other interpretation than redistribution of wealth?
Third,
I notice that you defend ACORN in your statement but you stay away from addressing whether Obama lied about his association which was the point of my prior statement. Very telling. I will assume that you concede his blatant dishonesty.
Fourth,
You didn’t even know that Obama worked at this law firm until I told you, did you? You didn’t have any idea that before his wife was even hired there Obama served his internship, didn’t you? Where exactly did Obama work in relative to Bernardine? Do you know? Can you say for certain that they never worked on projects together? Can you honestly say Obama didn’t know her and her husband? I imagine you will just take the liar Obama’s word for it right?
Fifth,
If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t it Saddam’s former intelligence chief who originally told the CIA about the mobile chemical weapons plants on the back of semi-trailers?
Sixth,
The reason the Foreign Intelligence Committee exists is so high ranking members from each party can review the very information the president gets. While neither they nor the president can say exactly what is in all of the briefings they can certainly take their impressions of the information and persuade fellow members of Congress. Are you telling me that if a high ranking Democrat took that report to heart he/she would not have had enough sway to convince their comrades to vote against a resolution leading to war? Only the most influential people serve on that committee for good reason.
Seventh,
You really believe the media has been after Obama? Do I have to define ‘delusion’ for you? Here’s a question I like to ask Obamaphiles who think they are informed about their candidate or think the media has done a good job of vetting him. Who ultimately paid Obama’s wages as a Community Organizer? Don’t think a quick little Google search is going to give you this one. Where specifically did the money come from? I know… Do you?
Where’s your rabbit now, RMWarnick? You see I don’t need magic. I have TRUTH on my side.
October 21st, 2008 at 10:29 am
Look at that - even Jim admits that ACORN is communist! And we know how those guys deal with dissent!
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/killing-fields.jpg
No comments on the Obama supporter that physically ATTACKED a lady holding a McCain sign?
October 21st, 2008 at 10:30 am
I lost a comment in the stupid spam filter….
October 21st, 2008 at 10:51 am
R.O. — Omissions are not lies. Out-of-context quotes are not policy. Innuendo isn’t truth. You are truly desperate.
You are mistaken. It was Rafid Ahmed Alwan, better known as “Curveball,” a taxi driver in Germany, who provided that rock-solid evidence of mobile biological (not chemical) weapons trailers. He was lying, and was amply rewarded for lying. Somehow, in Bush/Cheney Land, his made-up story outweighed top-secret information obtained from the highest levels of Saddam’s regime.
Because the tiny group of hand-picked Democrats who might have seen the real intelligence on Iraq lacked the courage to contradict President Bush in public, you conclude that Bush didn’t lie to the nation? Hah. ROFL.
Every Republican smear, no matter how unfounded, has been endlessly discussed and even brought up in the debates by big-media so-called journalists. How can you say it’s not so? Maybe if you only turn on Faux News.
October 21st, 2008 at 11:20 am
Richard W.,
I see you still refuse to say that Obama was not lying about his association with ACORN. Please don’t take the tack of defending ACORN. Obama hasn’t and you should follow his lead.
As I said in my post, I couldn’t remember for sure who made the Mobile Chemical Facility statements. I do remember that the media put together some really cool drawings of them though. As you know, WMDs were not needed for me to feel the war was justified. I personally felt they were a distraction from the true topics of genocide and known affiliation to terror groups, even if they weren’t Al Qaeda. Bushed used the question of WMDs to get everyone else, like most all the Dems on board for something they should have been on board with anyway.
Remember, it was the fact that Saddam failed to comply with UN inspections that ultimately lead to suspicions about WMDs and his demise. Blame Bush all you want but you hero Saddam brought the war on himself and his people. If the inspections were allowed we would have known will ALL CERTAINTY no WMDs exist and the war would have never happened. We wouldn’t have had to rely on questionable source that used to be loyal to Saddam. Did you know that Saddam used to even intimidate exiled Iraqi’s here in the US by threatening to kill them or their families after the first war? I can’t imagine without Saddam refusing inspections enough anti-war liberals would have crossed over just to save the lives of a few 100,000 Iraqi citizens. After all, they’re not really people are they Richard W?
Since you are looking things up for me. Would you mind looking up which Democrats did see the classified briefings prior to the war? Was Biden on that Committee?
Also, I know you were against the war from the beginning. Where you excited when Obama first proposed defunding the war as a Senator? Do you think it will still happen if he takes office. Or do you think he has changed his mind again? I will be curious if you guys will keep up your body count on this site when and if Obama is in charge of the war.
October 21st, 2008 at 11:25 am
Oooops… I forgot…
“Omissions are not lies…”
Does this mean that you don’t believe Bush lied by omitting you’re before mentioned Intelligence on no WMDs in Iraq? Can you say it for me Richard? Please? Can you say, “Bush didn’t lie about WMDs.” Pretty Please? It will make you feel much better I promise! It will be like a heavy mass conspiracy weight lifted from around your neck, Richard.
October 21st, 2008 at 11:57 am
R.O. — I don’t need to defend ACORN, they have done nothing wrong. John McCain was a leading supporter of ACORN until recently.
No WMD threat- no problem, eh? Except without an imminent threat to U.S. national security, the invasion of Iraq was a totally unjustified war of aggression and Congress would never have authorized it.
Do your own research on Biden. The Google is your friend.
Bush didn’t simply omit information, as you claim. He lied. It’s on the record.
October 21st, 2008 at 12:19 pm
John McCain was a leading supporter of ACORN? Really? One speach does not make a leading supporter, Richard.
Now you’re saying that Congress authorized a war in Iraq. Joe Biden claims that he only authorized us to go to the UN. Are you confused, or is he?
RO didn’t care about the WMDs (and for the record, neither did I). We supported the war for the same reasons Biden supports action in Darfur and supported action in Bosnia. But that’s awfully neo-con of us, isn’t it. Why it even makes us sound like Democrats. Eh?
Do you have a different position, Richard? Are you an isolationist like Pat Buchanan (you seem to refer to him quite a bit)?
Finally, nothing you’ve reference is a lie. It might be misleading in that certain information was omitted but there aren’t any outright lies.
Compare, for example, Biden’s assertion “When the stock market crashed, Franklin D. Roosevelt got on the television and didn’t just talk about the, you know, the princes of greed. He said, ‘Look, here’s what happened.’”
Not one, but 2 outright fabrications used to embellish his narrative….shame shame…
October 21st, 2008 at 1:29 pm
jd– We aim to please…
John McCain was one of the most prominent supporters of ACORN two years ago. Is that better?
Senator Biden is confused. The October 2002 AUMF did not require President Bush to obtain U.N. Security Council approval prior to ordering an invasion of Iraq.
Biden’s support of military action in Darfur and Bosnia was conditioned on legitimate international cooperation through the U.N. and NATO. Unilateral U.S. invasions tend not to turn out well.
Pat Buchanan knows lots of peasants with pitchforks– you don’t want to be insulting the man!
BUSH LIED to get the Iraq war authorization. LIED. BIG TIME. That’s the verdict of history. What are you going to do, burn all the history books? Delete the World Wide Web? HE LIED.
Senator Biden is a funny man. He gets things wrong. Unlike John McCain, he’s not old enough to remember FDR. But you know, he’s about a thousand times more qualified to be Vice President than Sarah Palin.
October 21st, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Let’s see some evidence, Richard.
On another note, it’s interesting that some posts are being deleted. It’s happened with a few of mine, and now Bob S.s.
October 21st, 2008 at 1:59 pm
jd– Let me get this straight. You refuse to believe Senator John McCain is a prominent political figure without evidence? He’s been in Congress 26 years. He ran for president in 2000. He is a presidential candidate right now.
October 21st, 2008 at 3:06 pm
No. I refuse to believe that he was a prominent supporter. Prominent being the adjective to “supporter”. In other words, a leading advocate for ACORN.
Any reasonable person would see the difference between attending a rally on immigration reform - an issue John McCain has been on the forefront of for some time now - and the concrete involvement of Obama. Obama has been involved with this organization for years, and has donated considerable funds (exceeding $800,000) to this organization, which has since been shown to have committed vast voter registration fraud in an attempt to help Obama win key states.
Any rational, reasonable person would see that difference - no matter what their political party affiliation.
Of course, on OneUtah, the search for “rational” and “reasonable” continues…
October 21st, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Richard W.,
I want to apologize for my last post. I didn’t realize how antagonistic it was until I re-read it. I meant it to be humorous, but my humor never seems to sell well when written down. I must say that the reason I respond so regularly to your posts is because I believe you to be one of the more reasonable writers here at UtahOne. Believe me though; I still take great joy in antagonizing Cliff.
Now back to the discussion…
ACORN and any organization like it, conservative or liberal, that takes tax payer dollars to load registration ballots to their cause are in my mind corrupt and should be illegal. Even if ACORN were on the up and up, the fact that they use tax dollars then concentrate registering in primarily Democrat areas, is wrong. If they want to do this with just donations only, that is fine. Also the fact that they have used strong arm techniques to pressure banks into lending to those with way less than perfect credit and no money down, is irreprehensible. If there were predatory lenders in the market selling sub-prime loans, ACORN was at least partly responsible for them. There IS a reason Obama lied about his affiliation with ACORN. You just refuse to see it.
Also, I will do the research for you and find out which Democrats had full knowledge prior to the War. It just would have been much better coming from you as a contributor here. Aren’t you just a little interested to know? Or are you dead set on steering away from any truth that may hurt your cause. If you are right, you should have nothing to fear. Anyway, you can’t fault a guy for trying.
Now to Iraq and Bush… You give a link to something that was put into the congressional record Rep. Henry Waxman, arguably one of the most liberal Representatives in Congress? Before going on I want to point out that Waxman represents West Hollywood, Santa Monica and Beverly Hills. Also, you do know that any representative can place anything into the congressional record right? Also, if you want you can register a star name after someone and have it recorded in book form in the U.S. Copyright Office. You should know that merely putting something in the record doesn’t make it fact, Richard. I have read Mr. Waxman’s complaints against Bush and have found not one actual piece of evidence that Bush knowing told a lie during the build up to the Iraq War. In fact if submitted into a court for trial his statements would all be ruled speculation and innuendo. Nice try Richard, but no cigar here…
So let’s get back to the main subject of this thread before it dies. Are you still unwilling to admit that there are radicals filed with just as much hate on the left as those depicted in your posted video. Do you believe that if I went to one of your “peace” rallies I would have any trouble finding people willing to say on camera how much they hate Bush? Do you think that it would be difficult for me to incite some of them to violence with just my words? I don’t…
October 21st, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Okelberries,
Where did you get the idea that ACORN’s mission is to register democrats?
Their mission is to register voters based upon the concept of increasing voter participation.
I think everyone agrees that higher voter participation leads to more responsive government and a better informed people.
Your reasoning is smeared with biased reasoning.
October 21st, 2008 at 9:32 pm
R.O. — No need to apologize for being antagonistic. It’s the main topic of this post, in fact.
ACORN’s voter registration drives receive no government funding. Where do you get your misinformation?
Good luck with your research. It’s not going to be easy to learn which senators knew the truth about Iraq’s lack of weapons of mass destruction prior to the invasion. Fewer than ten senators bothered to read the full classified National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) before voting. According to TheHill.com, Senator Biden says he did but there is no way to prove it.
Of course, like the unclassified version, the classified NIE largely ignored or downplayed intelligence that the Bush administration didn’t want Congress to know about. Dissenting views (which turned out to be correct) were reportedly buried in the footnotes.
You don’t have to settle for Rep. Waxman’s compilation of Bush administration Iraq lies. There are plenty of others, like this one. Straight-up LIES.
If you have video or reports of hateful comments by people at anti-war rallies, post some links.
October 22nd, 2008 at 5:55 am
Richard,
Maybe the two of us are thinking of a different ACORN. You don’t have to dig very far to discover that ACORN not only pushes for mainly Democrat registrations but that they have take millions in tax dollars since their inception.
Now to the War…
I think I prefer your last site… OK this site claims that Bush along with 7 of his top officials made 935 FALSE statements in the 2 years following 9/11. I’ve read through stuff like this before on these conspiracy sites and I find it tedious. With all of those “false” statements out there certainly you can find one that was an out right premeditated lie on the part of Pres. Bush. Let’s see if you can find that one statement or series of statements that would prove that Pres. Bush with premeditation purposely deceived the American people about the reasons for War in Iraq. While, I am sure you would like to convict the President using hearsay, innuendo and speculation, you should remember that the requirement for impeachment is much higher. If simply speculating about what went on was enough, Obama’s past dealing with Ayer’s would have been enough to toss him from the Senate. I have no love for Bush but let’s stick to what we can prove.
October 22nd, 2008 at 7:25 am
Okelberries,
Even right-wing CNN has debunked YOU and your ACORNS. Aren’t you tired of blowing hot air?
October 22nd, 2008 at 7:52 am
R.O. — What kind of evil organization would advocate a living wage, affordable housing, tax justice, and taking good care of our environment? What’s worse, according to the WSJ, they fight against diverting our tax dollars from public education to private schools. I’m just horrified!
As far as President Bush lying his way into an illegal invasion, the verdict of history has been rendered. You’re not going to be able to rewrite history.
October 22nd, 2008 at 8:44 am
Wow, you could practically see the foam dripping from their mouths.
I too have heard the mantra of “angry left” but as a frequent demonstrator, mostly against the war, I’ve seen the ugly angry, right many times.
The most common: “get a job” (I have one, thanks), “take a shower, you hippy” (took one this morning, and my hair is brushed neatly, my clothes are clean and I’m odor free, but do they notice?), getting the finger (half a peace-sign, they’ll get there eventually), ‘move to Canada!” (too cold, like the health care though — will you help pay for the move?), “America-haters!” (Sorry I don’t hate, it isn’t peaceful. Does this make you “earth-haters?”).
With a few exceptions, this crowd is pretty unoriginal in their hate. But how racist was the monkey guy? And proud of his racism too. It’s time to evolve, people.
October 22nd, 2008 at 10:00 am
Still no comments (or acknowledgment) of the Democrat who attacked the lady carrying the McCain sign, eh?
That doesn’t count?
October 22nd, 2008 at 11:22 am
This is an interesting statement, Richard.
I was under the impression that the tax dollars were to be used for the education of the students. Are you suggesting that that isn’t the goal?
October 22nd, 2008 at 1:35 pm
jd– You know it, but I’ll tell you anyway. School vouchers transfer wealth from taxpayers at large to the folks who can afford to put their kids in private schools. Bad idea. It’s a lot like McCain’s terrible health insurance plan– only good for the well-off, and the rest get screwed.
October 22nd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
And what happens to the taxes that are paid by the people who put their children in private schools? Where does that go?
Do these private school parents get some sort of rebate?
Or do they subsidize public schools?
You follow the classic Union talking points, Richard.
The fact is, Vouchers only would account for a percentage of what the Government pays to public schools per pupil. The rest remains with the public school (free subsidy).
And why wouldn’t you want kids to get out of failing schools? Are you interested in retaining a permanent underclass?
I’m guessing that you’re probably aware that most of these failing schools are in minority neighborhoods.
Private schools aren’t that expensive - and with a decent voucher, they’d be less so. And children would have the opportunity to get an education aimed at them, not the least common denominator.
October 22nd, 2008 at 2:13 pm
jd:
A question for you. You note that most of the failing schools are in minority neighborhoods. Are you willing to see the use of vouchers restricted to only those schools? Or do you prefer the use of vouchers on a state-wide basis, which was tried and rejected by voters in Utah? Indeed, just what is it you prefer, other than reciting the typical republican talking point that vouchers are somehow good?
October 22nd, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Sure. Let’s see how that works for a while. If it’s effective, why not expand it statewide?
And you, James? What’s your take on vouchers?
October 22nd, 2008 at 4:52 pm
I’m fine with vouchers or an extremely limited basis. But no way jose on a statewide basis, as I am a firm believer in public education.
October 23rd, 2008 at 7:13 am
Richard W.
While we can talk about any of those issues individually, I will assume that you HAVE conceded that you were wrong about ACORN taking tax dollars and that you also have no problem using tax dollars as part of a lobbying campaign. If your down with that, maybe I could get some federal funding to help stop babies from being killed by abortionists.
As far as Bush lying: Are you saying that you have also conceded that Bush didn’t lie but that you hate him so much that you are glad that you and your kind have been able to so successfully defame him and bear false witness against him so that he will forever be wrongly labeled? Good job Richard Warnick, you show yourself to be a moral and just man in all things.
October 23rd, 2008 at 7:16 am
Cliff,
The very fact that you called CNN right wing shows that you really need to talk to your doctor about adjusting your meds. It is interesting that you used the CNN Truth Squad, to make your point because this is also the clip where CNN first conceded that Obama DID lie about his associations with ACORN in the debate (skip to 3:50 in the video.) We will all be arguing the value of ACORN for years to come. The question is; why if they are so great did Obama LIE about his past association with them? Do you have an answer, Cliff? (It’s sooooo funny that you posted this video because this is the same video I would have posted to make my point at the beginning of this thread when we first got on this subject.) Notice how your right wing CNN reported inserts “he was good right?” when talking about Obama training ACORN members. What a right wing hack, right?
October 23rd, 2008 at 7:19 am
Jenni,
You’ve got a good sense of humor. It is good to finally find someone who agrees that if you want to find crazy people all you have to do is look to the far left or the far right of the political spectrum. The problem is, you on the left will never reform someone on the right. And someone on the right will never reform those on the left. It is up to those from within their own political spectrum to help reform or marginalize those extreme elements on each side. Just as many Republicans are now trying to marginalize the religious-right, moderate Democrats need to help radical fringe of their party.
As for me, I am stuck in the middle and have no real power. The Republican’s won’t have me because I am against the death penalty, don’t believe in prayer in public schools or the ten commandments in court houses and the Democrats won’t have me because I am against abortion and socialism.
October 23rd, 2008 at 7:19 am
Jdberger,
How about the crazy lady who tried to place Rove under citizen’s arrest with handcuffs? Very funny stuff. I’ve learned long ago that most the contributors here will avoid any argument they cannot easily win and will NEVER concede even the smallest point. Without such concession in discussion, we are all just banging our heads against the wall.
October 23rd, 2008 at 8:08 am
R.O. — Assume nothing. ACORN did not use tax dollars to register voters. As far as me lying about Bush’s lies, ROFL. Verdict of history and all that.
October 23rd, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Tell me about the Angry Right
PITTSBURGH — A 20-year-old woman who was robbed at an ATM in Bloomfield was also maimed by her attacker, police said.
Pittsburgh police spokeswoman Diane Richard tells Channel 4 Action News that the victim was robbed at knifepoint on Wednesday night outside of a Citizens Bank near Liberty Avenue and Pearl Street just before 9 p.m.
Richard said the robber took $60 from the woman, then
.
Richard said the woman refused medical treatment after the assault, which happened outside the view of the bank’s surveillance cameras.
The robber is described as a dark-skinned black man, 6 feet 4 inches tall, 200 pounds with a medium build, short black hair and brown eyes. The man was wearing dark colored jeans, a black undershirt and black shoes.
October 24th, 2008 at 5:00 am
Richard,
Let’s not be naive. Now you’re splitting hairs. I little bit ago you were denying that they took tax dollars at all. Listen, not only have ACORN come out in support of Obama but they have printed shirts for their registration canvassers to wear that have both the Obama logo and the Acorn logo on them. Brother, you need to change the channel for MSNBC sometime and at least try to get a rounded picture of the world. “OBAMA TV… All day all night… here at MSNBC!”
Saying they didn’t use the dollars for canvassing doesn’t matter. First it’s like saying Planned Parenthood only uses tax dollars to pay their utility bills and not for abortions. I’d love to see them try to abort babies without the lights on or electricity to power the fetal vacuum. Richard, you are in serious jeopardy of impugning your own integrity by clinging to any argument that either denies Obama lied or tries to do what Obama has refused to do himself, defend ACORN.
If anything good does come out of this election, it will be that ACORN will find it difficult finding another elected official on capitol hill willing to write them a check.
One last thing about the crazies on the right and the left… I have lived all over the country, from coat to coast, from big cities like Chicago to small towns like Logan. The one thing I have noticed is that when you go into areas that are primarily considered Democrat areas the crime rate seems to go through the roof. Why do you think that is? Have Republicans simply screwed these areas up and left them to the Dems to fix or is there a legitimate disconnect between themselves and the law among many Democrats. It would be interesting to see, of all the people incarcerated for violent crimes, let alone drug crimes, how many are Liberal vs. Conservative. Just something to think about… Maybe, I’ll see if there has ever been a study.
October 24th, 2008 at 6:26 am
Update to the early post about the alleged attack; from the pictures posted it is possible this is a hoax. More information as it develops.
October 24th, 2008 at 7:25 am
Ooooh, oooh Okelberries. Please, please please CALL ON ME?
I know why; “… areas that are primarily considered Democrat areas the crime rate seems to go through the roof. Why do you think that is?”
Cuz democrats are immoral and give money to slackers and are soft on crime?
Did I get it?
Are you trying to embarrass the just republicans, or Lutherans too?
October 24th, 2008 at 7:54 am
R.O.– Not splitting hairs. If you look at my comment above, he’s what I said.
I never said ACORN has no government funding at all.
Bob S. — Thanks for the update. I’m sorry for what happened to Ms. Todd, however it would be very strange indeed if the motive was because she had a McCain bumper sticker.
October 24th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Evolution. New theory states that human evolution is predicated on the changes to human babies and infants (even in the womb) that are born into the sun’s periods of high gamma radiation. Many of these infants die. This radiation increases as sunspot activity decreases, and is cyclic. It is demonstrably so, this cycle.
The idea is that humans really don’t evolve until our DNA is mutated by the increased gamma radiation of the sun, or by mutation due to aging. It explains the apparent gaps and leaps in human evolution, and contrary to popular belief, the evolution is not as slow as once believed.
Bears reading about, as it would end all this gnashing of teeth and would explain a great and bring some understanding to what we are. We are currently in one of these high gamma radiation cycles. Some of our kids, will evolve to other methods of survival.
/www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/07/leading-geneticist-says-h_n_132477.html
Meanwhile the above article suggests we are done with evolving, we can perhaps be expecting more of what we have been getting.
October 24th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Hey Bob S,
Did you hear? The Todd story is bogus. The chick is just an attention starved freak who is obsessed with McCain because she wants to go on a shopping spree and Bloomingdales.
October 24th, 2008 at 10:56 am
The Pittsburgh CBS affiliate is now reporting that Ashley Todd has confessed to making up the story and is facing charges.
Yesterday, John Moody, the executive vice president of Faux News, wrote (emphasis added):
The Angry Right turns out to be the McCain campaign’s biggest liability. With friends like these…
October 24th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Whoa! Look at that. Bob makes an error and immediately owns up to it.
Richard flat out lied to make a point and STILL hasn’t come clean. Maybe he’s too busy trying to douse his pants?
To reinforce the Angry Left….
October 24th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Did you read that Richard W? Seems like Cliff is blaming Democrats for high crime. Maybe he has finally fallen of the left end and doesn’t even fit in with the Democrats anymore.
October 24th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
jd– You keep accusing me of lying, without offering any facts of your own. Just like the McCain campaign and all the rest of the right-wing noisemakers.
October 24th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Then Top Post the entire McCain military quote, Richard.
Prove me wrong.
You KNOW you lied. You KNOW you deliberately truncated the quote so you could prove your point.
It was dishonest. It was a LIE.
And surely that’s why you didn’t even provide a LINK to the quote, isn’t it.
Post the entire quote, Richard. It’s not that hard, is it?
October 24th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
jd– You’re in no position to make demands. I think the full quote is too long and nonsensical. That’s just my opinion– put it in a comment if you want!
October 24th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
No. But I am in the postion to expose you as the degenerate liar that you are, Richard.
October 24th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Again, without any facts you’re looking pretty naked.
October 24th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
JD,
Since Richard W. is unwilling to post the full quote, I will.
Was this the quote you mentioned?
October 24th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
jd,
Do you have any backup for your assertion that ACORN “… has since been shown to have committed vast voter registration fraud in an attempt to help Obama win key states.”
It seems to me that ACORN employees committed registration fraud in order to keep their jobs.
October 24th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Could someone please point me to the comment or post where Richard supposedly lied?
October 24th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Here ya go, Don.
Compare to the actual quote, above.
October 24th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
As I previously noted, the full McCain quote is just blather about some incentive system he hasn’t even formally proposed. Meanwhile, in the real world, the U.S. Army is offering up to $40,000 in bonuses (PDF) for qualified people and is hard pressed to maintain the current force.
There is no way to greatly expand our military without a draft. McCain may be afraid to say the word “draft” most of the time, because it’s political poison. But he has stated his position in favor of a draft.
October 24th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
jd,
How is comparing the two quotes evidence that Richard lied?
October 24th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Oh, and the ACORN assertion? Anything on that yet?
Also, I read through some of that other thread. I think characterizing what Obama and Biden have said about going after Al-Qaeda in Pakistan as saying they’ll “invade” Pakistan is just a wee bit disingenuous.
October 24th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Oh, Don? You mean ACORN didn’t actually commit the registration fraud, only it’s employees did? I realize that you might have a point here, if ACORN is a corporation, which is legally treated by a person, but are you truly trying to “Farmer” this by splitting linguistic hairs?
Regarding Pakistan, what part of (and I’m paraphrasing) “go after” is unclear? Isn’t an armed incursion into a sovereign Nation State an “invasion”?
October 24th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Finally, Richard’s deliberate omission of the remainder of the quote completely changes the meaning. It’s a deliberate falsehood. A lie.
October 24th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
jd– I simply extracted the straight talk and left out the non-reality-based part of what McCain said. It’s true that “the all-volunteer force is having difficulties recruiting and retaining.” It’s also true that McCain’s proposed foreign policy depends on the use of force, which means rapidly expanding the size of our military. What’s not true is that unspecified “incentives” can attract enough volunteers to expand– the ground forces in particular. We’ll need to reinstate the draft, as McCain has said on other occasions. How hard is that to understand?
October 24th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
So - you’re assertion is based on speculation? You’re Nostradamus?
That’s quite the backpedal, isn’t it?
Admit you lied. Admit you truncated the quote to change the meaning.
October 24th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
And there you go. Liar.
October 24th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
jd,
I kind of took the statement Richard quoted as more in support of what Obama had said rather than proof that McCain supported reinstating the draft. After reading the rest of the quote that seems to be the case. If Richard expresses disagreement with McCain’s idea that a nebulously described incentive plan will have any effect on enrollment figures, I don’t see that as deliberately lying about what McCain said.
I understand the context of the conversation (you hounding Richard for “proof” that McCain supports reinstating the draft). I didn’t take this quote as Richard providing that proof, but rather as supporting a wholly separate argument. Richard’s opinion may be that this quote supports the idea that McCain supports the draft, but I don’t think he was supplying it as the proof, per se.
October 24th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
jd,
My question about ACORN is regarding whether or not you have any evidence that ACORN was involved in some type of conspiracy or plot to commit “vast voter registration fraud in an attempt to help Obama win key states.” (emphasis added)
First, has ACORN itself been accused of and/or convicted of committing voter registration fraud? Second, if they have, has it been shown that this was done in an attempt to help Obama win key states? Or, is the substance of the complaints regarding ACORN relegated to a relatively few employees who have taken it upon themselves to commit voter registration fraud, more often than not in an attempt to simply remain employed with ACORN?
Lastly, is there any evidence at all of widespread voter/election fraud due to incomplete and/or suspicious registrations (from any source)?
Thanks.
October 25th, 2008 at 7:25 am
Jd,
Sorry for leaving you to take on the vast left wing conspiracy here at UtahOne alone. My wife just delivered an awesome 8lb 1oz little boy, so I have been a bit distracted. Thank God she didn’t go to her doctor and complain about a headache so she could abort the little guy last week. I know Cliff, who even favors abortion as a form of population control, must be terribly disappointed. I must say though JD, you have been holding your own in my absence.
Great job pointing out how some on the left continue to twist and misrepresent statements by McCain to support their ideology. You see, Richard W, has a rare ability to decipher the “code” used by the right. It’s interesting that Liberals like to jump at any chance to claim that Conservatives want to bring back the draft but it is the Democrats in Congress who have recently proposed it. This discussion also reminds me of how Liberals like to use the “100 year” statement by McCain to imply that McCain wants the war in Iraq to go on for 100 years. Using that quote is an obvious attempt to be deceptive. Unfortunately for us, Liberals don’t really seem to have a problem with lying, unless it is a Conservative doing it. They see it as a means to an end and nothing more. It is more important in their lives for their football team to win then it is for them to admonish misconduct by their players.
October 25th, 2008 at 7:27 am
Richard W.
You have used the “100 years” quote by McCain before. Would you please use your crackerjack decoder and tell us again what McCain was “really” saying?
October 25th, 2008 at 8:38 am
Okleberries,
I am surprised you would drag your wife into this on the very evening of your sons birth. Congratulations by the way. I wish all the best for you and your family.
But Okie. This is a bit creepy.
Especially given the fact that you admonished me for getting personal early on when I used your wife in the hypothetical to remind you that your position on abortion would require taking away your wife’s individual right AND yours to determine whats best for your family.
To turn around and suggest I would prefer your very own chosen new-born be aborted is rather sick to say the least.