Some years ago, I had a coworker who was painfully stupid. She couldn’t handle the most fundamental tasks of the job and was constantly creating chaos in her wake (I’ve joked for years her filing her system was based on the weather and color her socks – if it was raining everything got filed under “w” for wet or “r” for rain or “y” since she was wearing yellow socks that day, possibly though it might be under “g” for grey). Yet, when asked, she asserted that she was extremely highly skilled that her work was excellent. In her mind, criticism of her work was motivated by personal jealousy and dislike – her boss didn’t like her and that’s why her boss criticized her. After she was fired, she was devastated, convinced that she’d been done in by a cabal of persons who disliked her intensely and had conspired to undermine her reputation and work. I would guess she’s out there somewhere now, causing her coworkers no end of grief with her combination of genuine niceness and likeableness and utter crazy making inability to perform simple tasks.
While sorting through my office a while back I found a document a previous coworker had prepared to ‘balance’ the monthly group life insurance bill. It was obvious she’d spend hours on it; yet simply glancing at it, I could see that her work had been wasted. She had simply used the pieces of information. She balanced the bill against the applications for insurance not the actual payroll deductions. As a result, she contacted the insurance company and made a host of changes to the bill so they matched the applications. The actual premiums deducted from the paychecks were radically different than those shown on the applications. When confronted as to why the amount deducted from paychecks was different than the amount paid to the insurance company she had no answer. She defended herself asserting that the bill “balanced.”
I’ve heard stories of other coworkers who are equally astonishingly unskilled. Apparently my employer once had a warehouse worker who could not count correctly – he’d record five boxes, someone else would walk up and see six; yet he would assert there were only five because two came from the same person and therefore counted as one box not two.
I found myself thinking about these coworkers the other day. The skills you need to arrive at the correct answer are the same skills you need to know if the answer is wrong. To put it another way – if you can’t get to the right outcome, you probably don’t possess the necessary skills to know what the right outcome is in the first place. It’s not a simple lack of knowledge or different interpretation of rules – it’s a form of full scale incompetence that is so This is a situation known as the Anosognosic’s Dilemma. Here’s a nice description:
Dunning and Kruger argued in their paper, “When people are incompetent in the strategies they adopt to achieve success and satisfaction, they suffer a dual burden: Not only do they reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it. Instead, like Mr. Wheeler, they are left with the erroneous impression they are doing just fine.”
It became known as the Dunning-Kruger Effect — our incompetence masks our ability to recognize our incompetence.
It’s a provocative idea. What if someone is simply so stupid they don’t know they are stupid?
DAVID DUNNING: Well, my specialty is decision-making. How well do people make the decisions they have to make in life? And I became very interested in judgments about the self, simply because, well, people tend to say things, whether it be in everyday life or in the lab, that just couldn’t possibly be true. And I became fascinated with that. Not just that people said these positive things about themselves, but they really, really believed them. Which led to my observation: if you’re incompetent, you can’t know you’re incompetent.
ERROL MORRIS: Why not?
DAVID DUNNING: If you knew it, you’d say, “Wait a minute. The decision I just made does not make much sense. I had better go and get some independent advice.” But when you’re incompetent, the skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is. In logical reasoning, in parenting, in management, problem solving, the skills you use to produce the right answer are exactly the same skills you use to evaluate the answer. And so we went on to see if this could possibly be true in many other areas. And to our astonishment, it was very, very true.
The other day, I was in the grocery store and watched as a woman spent easily 15 minutes trying to use the self check. She couldn’t figure out how to start the process, then she didn’t understand the bar codes then she didn’t understand you have to bag the items. I would guess she was spending a minute scanning for every dollar spent. A few days later, I saw the same woman using the self check like a professional. She had acquired and mastered the necessary skills. For the anosognosic, the problem is that they aren’t even aware they don’t have the necessary skills.
I’ve spent a lot of time on this because it’s necessary to understand before moving on. Paul Rosenberg is suggesting that the problem with American politics is the anosognosic’s dilemma – the policy elites of the US are incapable of recognizing their own blithering idiocy on a great many policy questions.
Step by step. We start with Chris Hayes of the Nation:
If you’ve been paying attention this past decade, it won’t surprise you to learn that the country’s policy elites are in the midst of a destructive, well-nigh unhinged discussion about the future of the nation. But even by the degraded standards of the Washington establishment, the growing panic over government debt is shocking. [snip]
This all seems eerily familiar. The conversation—if it can be called that—about deficits recalls the national conversation about war in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq. From one day to the next, what was once accepted by the establishment as tolerable—Saddam Hussein—became intolerable, a crisis of such pressing urgency that “serious people” were required to present their ideas about how to deal with it. Once the burden of proof shifted from those who favored war to those who opposed it, the argument was lost.
Hayes points out what may be the most distressing aspect of public debate in the US today. Once the “serious” people make a decision which is false, they demand the rest of us accept their premise. Those who reject their false premise are dismissed as unserious and largely excluded from discussion. Our moronically incapable press corps blithely reports “well both sides have a point” and steadfastly refuses to fact check. The discussion then turns on a set of entirely false assumptions as increasingly hysterical pronouncements create a chaotic sense of urgency among elected officials and before you know, they’re scrambling to solve the wrong problem. Common sense, meanwhile, lies bleeding on the Senate cloakroom floor, the victim of a mass mugging and possibly gang rape at the hands of Republicans and DC commentariat elite while far too many Dems scrambled for cover knowing they’d be the next victim if they spoke up.
Paul Rosenberg talked about this process in terms of the deficit discussion, arguing:
No. We are facing total systems failure, just like Versailles leading up to the French Revolution.
This is not just a matter of individual failing. It’s both institutional and inter-instutional. It is systemic. We are the United States of epic fail, the United States of Anosognosia. We are, as a nation, trapped in what Errol Morris so chillingly called it,“The Anosognosic’s Dilemma: Something’s Wrong but You’ll Never Know What It Is”.
Except, of course, that all us DFHs know exctly what it is. It’s the same old elitist aristocratic death grip that we’ve been struggling against for the past 10,000 years. The “I’m right, you’re wrong, God said so, and who the fuck are you to question me?” mentality.
That’s what’s wrong.
There’s a far simpler explanation, one that Philip Zimbardo described as bad barrels making bad apples, but also described by Carol Tavris as walking down the pyramid.
I started off by talking about coworkers who were too stupid to know they were stupid. I want to talk about a coworker with a different problem. This coworker is very competent; but like all of us makes mistakes. Here’s where it gets messy – unable to admit his mistakes my coworker wastes huge amounts of time defending and justifying his mistakes – he’s at times gone so far as to argue that it’s not a mistake, in fact the outcome is really what we wanted in the first place.
In Mistakes Were Made ( . . . but not by me), authors Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson examine a set of circumstances under which people justify our mistakes. Once we make those mistakes, once we publicly claim some position, we own it – we literally can’t back away from what we’ve said or done. We defend our actions and the more we defend them, the more we feel the need to defend them. If someone criticizes us we feel an even stronger need to defend our flawed positions. In a case where a position we valiantly and publicly defended turns out to be disastrous, we’ll edit out people who were right while were wrong. The Iraq war is a perfect example. Of course it was a completely wrong policy from day one. Lots of otherwise respectable people however did everything they could to support the Bush administration in the run up to the war. Lots of otherwise smart people supported the war. Andrew Sullivan, for instance, was ridiculously outspoken in favor of the war. He eventually recanted that position. He’s one of the very few. As Tavris and Aronson explain, in the face of such a massive misjudgment, honestly admitting how wrong you were is painful, more than the average politician can be, simply because the average politician is also possessed of a massive ego. To admit they were not only wrong, but taken in by Bush’s lies and deceptions? No, that’s more than they could do. It would strike to closely at the core of personal identity to be able to admit such a thing.
Philip Zimbardo is known for his famous Stanford Prison Experiment (which I wrote about here, here and here). He discusses at length in his book The Lucifer Effect the ways in which otherwise ordinary and moral people behave in shocking and immoral ways. Zimbardo focused on extreme circumstances where persons are removed from their normal social support networks, from the normal forces which shape and support their moral behavior; take someone away from home, deprive him or her of family, friends etc. and extreme behaviors can occur. Individuals fall into a dangerous groupthink, they sacrifice their independence in the name of social cohesion. Some examples include fraternities and sororities – people end up behaving in ways they not normally behave because they are isolated from their usual networks. They establish new identities consistent with their new setting. Zimbardo calls it the bad barrel effect – put a good apple in a bad barrel and it goes bad; in terms of people, take someone out of that bad barrel and put them in the previous good barrel and they will return to the previous behavior and attitudes. Isolated from other people and located in a bad barrel, members of Congress begin to engage in groupthink – focusing disastrously on a narrow range of ideas. Rather than engaging the vast currents of thought and richness of ideas in modern America, members of Congress find themselves in a bad barrel that exposes them and approves of a very constricted set of ideas – Saddam Hussein is a bad man; we have to get rid of him. They accept the premise – which automatically limits their options. The basic debate over the Iraq, for instance, that happened within American political circles was degraded, shallow, an offense to the idea of democracy. Within the wider culture however there was an often vibrant and dynamic debate.
Given that at least since 1980, the most vocal part of the punditocracy has accepted and parroted Reaganite ideas about government and taxes, given that many of them cheered on Bush’s tax cuts and wars they now cannot face the realities that they were horrifyingly wrong. Protected by the bad barrel that is the insider world of Washington DC parties and pundits and commentary, they are able to pretend that the most pressing problem facing the US is the deficit they themselves played a key role in creating. They can’t admit that the bad policies they themselves supported created the problem. To do so would require they sacrifice a huge portion of their self image as competent, intelligent, insightful, knowledgeable insiders. They would sacrifice their place within “respectable” society. And rather than confront those who were right, they dismiss them and lead to the situation Paul Krugman pointed out that those who have been right all along are written off as unserious, dismissed as having no role in the current debate due to that unseriousness. Admitting them now would require admitting that maybe back then, they were right and the cheerleaders were wrong and let’s be honest, the collective and individuals egos of the commentariat and the politicians got us into this mess can’t permit that.
It’s not – as with the anosognosic – that they lack the skills to see their error. They lack the will.



#1 by Cliff Lyon on July 18, 2010 - 10:05 am
There is no reproductive advantage in being right. None. The reproductive advantage is in strength of conviction.
This explains why we see faith than objectivity in our human institutions. That is the preponderance of churches for instance, value strength of faith over truth.
Objectivism and reason are the enemy of self-conviction and faith.
#2 by A N O'Ther on July 18, 2010 - 11:14 am
Objectivism is a philosophy popular mostly among adolescents. I suppose you mean objectivity.
#3 by brewski on July 18, 2010 - 5:09 pm
Let’s review the data of the year before Reagan took office (1980) and his last year in office (1988) (no cherry picking):
Unemployment:
1980 = 7.2%
1988 = 5.3%
GDP change:
1980 = -0.3%
1988 = +4.1%
Inflation:
1980 = 13.5%
1988 = 4.1%
Total government revenue (all levels) as a % of GDP:
1980 = 31.76%
1988 = 32.86%
Total government spending (all levels) as a % of GDP:
1980 = 33.72%
1988 = 34.73%
Revenue minus spending of all levels of government as a % of GDP:
1980 = -1.96%
1988 = -1.87%
So let’s review:
Unemployment went down
Inflation went down
Growth went up
Total tax receipts increased as a % of GDP
Total spending increased as a % of GDP
Net deficits decreased as a % of GDP
Which part of that was so horrible of the Reagan era?
Full disclosure: I never voted for Reagan. I voted for Mondale. I thought Reagan’s Iran-Contra was a pretty awful circumvention of the constitution even if I was no fan of the Sandinistas. Also, I give Carter huge credit for appointing Paul Volcker to the Fed and also starting the deregulation of several formally government-cartel controlled industries.
So what else was so good about the pre-Reagan era?
Carter’s full support of the Shah of Iran?
Johnson’s Vietnam?
Kennedy’s Bay of Pigs?
(OK, this is cherry picking)
But to lay the blame of the current crisis we are in on Reaganites and their policies is absolute rubbish.
Much of the blame can and should be laid on:
1. every politcian who refused to reform the various entitlement programs to be something other than the intergenerational Ponzi schemes that they are
2. careerist politicians who have been bought by Wall Street, teachers’ unions and other narrow interests instead of improving the greater good
3. and the Post-Volcker Federal Reserve for creating 2 bubbles for which we will be paying for a long time.
#4 by Cliff Lyon on July 18, 2010 - 6:18 pm
Brewski, This data is simply false which, I should assume is the reason you provided no references.
Its not a bad thing that you didn’t go to college. Still, we try to hold our writers to that standard at least (you know, providing reasonably acceptable references. Anything really will do).
K?
PS: Wikipedia is not a widely acceptable source in higher academia, but that is changing. We accept it here.
#5 by Glenden Brown on July 18, 2010 - 6:22 pm
I’d like to thank brewski for providing a real time example of what I’m talking about.
#6 by Joe Torres on July 18, 2010 - 8:37 pm
The continuing support progressives give to Obama is an excellent example of this anosognosis you are talking about.
Still offering support despite him abandoning the mission and serving his real masters so quickly. Sort of a “can’t see the forest for the trees” kind of thing eh Glendon?
#7 by brewski on July 18, 2010 - 9:38 pm
Source of unemployment rates:
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?data_tool=latest_numbers&series_id=LNS14000000
Source of GDP growth rates:
http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=1&ViewSeries=NO&Java=no&Request3Place=N&3Place=N&FromView=YES&Freq=Year&FirstYear=1980&LastYear=1988&3Place=N&Update=Update&JavaBox=no
Source of Inflation data:
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet
Source of Revenue, Spending and Deficits:
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/
Cliff,
You lose.
Apologize, again.
By the way Glenden, your vacuous reply merely strengthens my case. But that is what you people do; name call and avoid the data. Try to address the substance, if you are able. We already know Cliff’s method is just to pretend it doesn’t exist. Actually, that is giving Cliff too much credit. That would assume that he knows what the truth is and is merely intentionally lying. What is clearly true is that he is too innumerate to know what the correct data are.
#8 by cav on July 19, 2010 - 8:50 am
The entire purpose of the military security state in all its pinacle enhancing ruses, is to consume resources that might otherwise be used to improve the material condition of the bulk of the population, which might then realize (due to great amounts of leisure time that could be devoted to study and thought) that it really doesn’t need a small elite ruling class to “run” society. Nor does it need all of that seemingly counterproductive security theater – or the blood. The traditional pyramidal structure of society is endangered, to the horror of those at the top.
Sure, it’s wasteful. But from the perspective of those at the top, that’s a feature, not a bug.
#9 by Glenden Brown on July 19, 2010 - 9:16 am
brewski –
My entire post was about the way in which people who have defended the Reaganite program of cutting taxes and regulation are unable to admit that their policy prescriptions led directly to the current problems we face – including the deficit, that further those folks would rather not admit the problems with the deficit are directly attributable to Bush’s tax cuts, Bush’s wars and Bush’s recession – take away those three factors and the deficit shrinks almost to nothing. Your response was to defend those policies using ridiculously cherry picked data while denying you were cherry picking data. You even upped the ante by engaging in a favorite tactic of conservatives – pretending that life before Reagan was terrible when in fact by almost every measure the US was better off before Reagan than after. A provocative response demonstrating exactly the dynamic I identified in my post.
#10 by brewski on July 19, 2010 - 9:30 am
First of all my data is 100% accurate and verifiable and comes from the US government’s own statistics, much to Cliff’s embarrassment again.
Second of all, explain to me in what way my data was cherry picked? Those are all broad objective measures of the economy before Reagan and at the end of Reagan.
Third of all, total tax receipts as a % of GDP went up! Explain to me how more tax receipts is cutting taxes. Higher tax rates are not higher taxes collected. Higher taxes collected are higher taxes collected, which the data show happened.
You are suffering from a well known mental disorder called “dellusion of grandeur cognitive dissonance”. You think you are smarter than everyone else, but the objective data proves you are endlessley wrong, so you lash out at others for their alleged stupidity and ignore the data. I suggest you seek a therapist before you hurt someone.
Your post is nothing more than unintentional self-parody.
#11 by Joe Torres on July 19, 2010 - 10:15 am
This lends some reasons as to why the populace is suffering from anosognosis. See how you do folks, if you have the 5 hours in this ADHD world.
http://snardfarker.ning.com/profiles/blogs/what-it-took-to-get-an-8th?xg_source=activity
#12 by Glenden Brown on July 19, 2010 - 10:16 am
you’re so cute when you try to be insulting, brewski.
You picked 1980 a recession year and compared it to 1988 not a recession year. Over Carter’s four years, GDP grew on average 3.28%; over Reagan’s 8 years it grew on average 3.42%, a very modest difference. You could argue that Reagan’s best year (1984) should be compared with Carter’s best year (1978). In that case you have 1984 at 7.19% and 1978 at 5.57% gdp growth. At first that look’s very impressive but consider that Reagan presided over the deep and painful recession of 1982 that saw a 2% decrease in GDP in 1982. After such a bad downturn, you would expect to see a very strong recovery and you did – there was a lost ground to make up. Among other factors, that particular recession was part of the overall effort to get a handle on inflation – extremely high interest rates reduced economic activity; one could argue the fed overshot in that case.
You’re also looking at the numbers the wrong way. Federal tax receipts as a percent of GDP fell from 19.59% in 1981 to 17.33% in 1984, then began a gradual increase to 18.35%, then fell again under the first Bush, before his administration raised taxes to get a handle on the deficit. Your argument that overall taxes as a % of GDP increased requires mixing local, state, and federal taxes into a single bucket but that is flawed. When federal tax receipts dropped, meaning federal payments to states for a variety programs fell, states were forced to increase taxes. We saw the same thing under Dubya – as federal taxes dropped, states found themselves forced to raise taxes to cover expenses previously paid for by federal dollars. Such a dynamic suggests that cutting federal taxes as an attempt to lower the tax burden is a flawed strategy and hence the right wing obsession with tax cuts has the unintended effect of raising effective tax rates and is therefore a flawed policy.
#13 by Richard Warnick on July 19, 2010 - 10:39 am
Glenden–
Fascinating post, made me look up “anosognosic.” I would add, entire organizations can suffer from lack of recognition of their own failure and incompetence. I can think of some government agencies.
What’s wrong with our politics is something else entirely, as you note. The incentives for politicians are often perverse, creating bad outcomes for the very citizens they are supposedly elected to represent. I’d like to think that politicians know this and don’t care, because they really represent the corporations not the people.
The alternative explanation is almost too scary to contemplate. For example, is it possible that some of our elected representatives actually believe tax cuts for the rich will reduce the deficit?
#14 by brewski on July 19, 2010 - 10:47 am
Glenden,
Your post #12 is a vast improvement over some of you other posts. It works a lot better when you cite data to support a thesis. It works much better than just calling people stupid. Thank you and I look forward to future constructive discussions.
#15 by Federal Farmer on July 19, 2010 - 10:50 am
It’s almost enjoyable reading Glenden’s arrogant analysis of the stupidity of others. He begins with stupid coworkers and then expands his critique to the “blithering idiocy” of American politics (Of course Democrats are never guilty of idiocy, it can only be their political detractors)… in the end, what Glenden is really talking about is political economy, and anyone who believes that cutting taxes and deregulating markets are imbeciles. Why? Well, either they are too stupid to recognize their folly, or they lack the simple courage to change course. The solution: Don’t want to be stupid? Just don’t be a Republican, libertarian, or one of those morons who believes that massive deficits aren’t good for this country.
In the end, disagree with this author and you automatically join some of his coworkers in Glenden’s memorable throng of idiots… destined for a future blog post. It seems that brewski has been formally admitted to the throng.
#16 by Richard Warnick on July 19, 2010 - 11:00 am
FF–
Maybe you don’t know about this, but the Obama administration is aiming to reduce the deficit by cutting Social Security and Medicare while exempting military spending. Obama’s under-the-radar “fiscal responsibility” commission, fondly known to progressives as the “Catfood Commission,” is meeting secretly to thwart the will of 80 percent of Americans.
BTW the Clinton administration wanted to do this, too. With Dems like these, who needs Republicans? Both parties suffer from corporatism.
Short-term deficits are needed in the midst of Bush’s Great Recession, to prevent a double-dip. Long-term deficits (like Bush’s) add to the National Debt and potentially drive up interest rates. Which isn’t happening right now or in the near future, because we’re in the Great Recession. We’ve got millions of Americans unemployed and under-employed, and no reality-based person is worried about high interest rates! It might take a decade to get back to where we were before Bush crashed the economy.
#17 by Glenden Brown on July 19, 2010 - 11:05 am
brewski – you still haven’t addressed the central issue I raised in my post – namely that for a lot of people in US politics having supported (loudly and publicly) the bush tax cuts and wars, they continue to insist their support for them was right even in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. The psychological dynamic behind that is the issue.
#18 by Glenden Brown on July 19, 2010 - 11:37 am
I would also add to Richard’s point that with the US economy trapped at in nearly zero percent interest rates that, strangely, the deficits we’re now running are going to be financed at almost zero percent interest. The real threat to the economy isn’t high interest rates and it isn’t inflation and it isn’t the short term deficit; a number of respected (i.e. Nobel prize) economists see our economy on the verge of a deflationary spiral which would cripple most Americans economically.
Paul Krugman – a year and a half ago, predicted exactly the situation we find ourselves in – ARRA was probably half the size it needed to be, meaning it didn’t deliver what it could have delivered and now critics are arguing the stimulus failed and shouldn’t have been tried in the first place and the administration can’t make another happen.
The sudden concern about deficits by conservatives would probably be more compelling if conservatives hadn’t spent the entire Bush administration not caring about the massive deficits Bush was running.
#19 by Joe Torres on July 19, 2010 - 11:56 am
Haha, the pathological blame game, Glendon has it bad! No amount of fact presentation will change the tune.
No need to wonder where we are headed, we are headlong in Bush’’s 3rd term and the results are predictable.
#20 by shane on July 19, 2010 - 12:15 pm
As has been asked more times than anyone can count, if deficits are so bad that there is no case where the good they might do is outweighed, then where were these budgetary geniuses during Bushes run from a record positive to a record negative?
The fact that a great deal careful and thoughtful economic work by people who not only have respect and knowledge in the area, but who have a proven predictive track record as well, is not going to matter to you, i know that. But at least try not to defend hypocrites.
#21 by brewski on July 19, 2010 - 12:18 pm
Yes Glenden, it amazing what some people will cling on to despite all the evidence to the contrary. For example, in this poll:
http://people-press.org/report/620/
It says that 67% of people think Obama has either hurt or had no effect on the economy, while there is the hard core true believer Kool Aide drinkers who still cling on to the fantasy that he has actually helped the economy. I guess this is another example of anosognosics.
Richard,
Size was not the problem with ARRA. It was design. It is not enough just to have a bill with a big number on it. It actually has to be spent in such a way that will create jobs. This bill really only had about 10% in it that can be called stimulus.
Whether deficits are a concern or not should be driven by whether you resent some people who weren’t always concerned with the deficits. It should be judged on its actual merits. Try to get past your personal contempt and look at the issue.
#22 by cav on July 19, 2010 - 12:27 pm
Go ahead Joe, make that prediction.
#23 by Richard Warnick on July 19, 2010 - 12:39 pm
brewski–
I don’t think I addressed ARRA specifically above, that was Glenden. However I totally agree with you. About a third of ARRA was made up of tax cuts (which were added at the expense of other things in exchange for three Republican votes in the Senate and one vote in the House). Not nearly enough was made up of the kind of infrastructure projects that would generate jobs, especially in the private sector.
Then Dems oversold ARRA so much that they can’t admit it wasn’t enough. Nor can they go for a second stimulus bill. Sadly, all predicted by Paul Krugman 18 months ago.
#24 by Glenden Brown on July 19, 2010 - 12:56 pm
#25 by brewski on July 19, 2010 - 1:13 pm
If Bush were running for president now that that would be a useful poll. But since he isn’t, it isn’t.
Richard, yes, sorry. I was addressing Glenden’s comments re ARRA.
#26 by Glenden Brown on July 19, 2010 - 1:45 pm
So brew you’re point is you agree with people like richard and paul krugman and me about ARRA. I’m glad to hear that. The primary criticisms of ARRA from the beginning were – it’s not big enough, it’s not the right kind of stimulus (i.e. tax cuts are the least efficient form of gov’t stimulus) and it was oversold and underdelivered. We’re all on the same page here.
The issue with the deficit remains: on the left we have a coherent position – which Richard laid out – and were consistent in criticizing the Bush administration for its fiscal policies. We heard nary a word from conservatives during the bush year’s, a democrat takes the white house and suddenly conservatives are screaming about deficits. Something that was okay when Bush was president was suddenly wrong when Obama was president? Makes you wonder.
#27 by James Farmer on July 19, 2010 - 2:54 pm
Nah. Coming from brew, it doesn’t make me wonder a bit. He’s been apologizing for repugs and Bush ever since Obama was handed the reins to financial collapse and incompetence in fighting a war against a sovereign nation, and it’s doubtful he’ll be letting up anytime soon.
#28 by Richard Warnick on July 19, 2010 - 2:59 pm
brewski–
That poll may be more relevant than you think. Some Republicans want to make the 2010 election a referendum on the Bush presidency.
Senator John Cornyn (R-TX):
#29 by brewski on July 19, 2010 - 3:07 pm
There were conservatives who were complaining about it, but you don’t listen to conservatives at all so you would never hear them even if they said things you liked.
– The Weekly Standard, 2005
You need to broaden your horizons past Rush and Fox for your source of conservative opinion.
James,
Can you give me some examples of when we fought wars against anyone other than a sovereign nation?
#30 by shane on July 19, 2010 - 3:47 pm
How about if i just spent a decade reading conservative blogs, websites and bulletin boards and found that almost no conservative from the rank and file ever complained about deficits and in fact anyone posting such sacrilege was generally banned from such sites?
…oh that is right, i wasn’t listening to the true scottsmen.
#31 by Federal Farmer on July 19, 2010 - 4:47 pm
Shane, notice that I qualified “deficits” with the word, “massive.” Deficits are a normal and necessary characteristic of such a large economy. Nevertheless, the deficit we are currently yoked to is unsustainable and endangers our prosperity and stability.
Furthermore, who is defending hypocrites? If you are assuming that I’m somehow attacking Obama while vindicating Bush on account of government spending, you are truly mistaken. Believe it or not, but not everyone falls so conveniently into the conventional political paradigm as yourself… many of us don’t enthusiastically support Democrats or Republicans… many of us are willing to call BS on both sides.
#32 by brewski on July 19, 2010 - 5:15 pm
Shane,
I have never heard the phrase “true Scotsman” before. As a Scot (sort of anyway) I guess I find that a funny phrase. But to answer your question,
Yes, you should have been listening to The Weekly Standard, the Wall Street Journal, Laura Ingraham and me.
#33 by James Farmer on July 19, 2010 - 6:41 pm
brew:
Thanks for pointing out my understatement. What I meant to say was fighting an unjust, unprovoked and illegal war of aggression against a sovereign nation.
#34 by brewski on July 19, 2010 - 6:56 pm
I am not going to argue some of the points such as “unjust” since that is in the eye of the beholder. But the objective measure such as unprovoked, illegal and sovereign are not true.
You may want to review your facts with regard to the 1991 conditional surrender by Iraq to the coalition forces, the various UN Security Council resolutions on that topic, and the interchange between the two.
The reason that call it a “conditional” surrender is because there are condtions attached. When those conditions are violated, then all bets are off. Iraq waived its sovereignty when it signed that surrender agreement. So much for sovereign, illegal and unprovoked.
#35 by shane on July 19, 2010 - 9:04 pm
Funny, i did listen to all of them. I will also point out that the standard, and WSJ are hardly the average Joe off the street conservative.
Further, both of them shrugged off the deficit more often than they complained about it.
I also learned that Ingraham is an annoying twit and I should ignore everything that comes out of her trap.
Good to hear that you are the new face of conservatism though. I will get the pulse from you…
#36 by shane on July 19, 2010 - 9:06 pm
#37 by shane on July 19, 2010 - 9:07 pm
Which would be more convincing if anyone ever herd you call BS on the side…..
#38 by Federal Farmer on July 19, 2010 - 9:20 pm
Read my blog, shane, I eagerly criticize Democrats and Republicans.
#39 by Richard Warnick on July 19, 2010 - 9:33 pm
I love the phrase “no true Scotsman.” From Wikipedia:
In this case, I could assert that no Republican would tolerate deficit spending by the federal government.
Someone else could point out that Vice-President Dick Cheney famously told former Treasury Secretary Paul H. O’Neill that “deficits don’t matter.”
To which I would reply, heatedly, no true Republican would tolerate deficit spending!
#40 by brewski on July 19, 2010 - 9:47 pm
Shane:
It may make you feel better that there are pretty much zero members of the current GOP leadership that I support. I like some of them more than others, and the pieces I like about some are different than the pieces I like about others. I also don’t listen to, and wouldn’t like if I did, the ratings-grubbing grenade-throwers on TV and radio. I do enjoy Dennis Miller, if I happen to be in my car at the time, because he is likable and not an asshole about his opinions, but that doesn’t mean I agree with him all the time.
I probably do represent some portion of the man on the street of America that is pretty fiscally conservative, but less so on social issues and cringes at both Obama and Sessions. If you pinned us down, what we really want is a government that works, doesn’t overreach, and doesn’t become a make-work program for people who couldn’t get a job in the real world. That means schools where good teachers (like my mom) have a home and bad teachers (like some of her colleagues, as she would be the first to point out) don’t. That means a tax system which is easy to comply with, doesn’t punish success, and doesn’t create perverse incentives (like subsidizing leverage). It also means a country that welcomes talented and hardworking immigrants of all colors and nationalities, but keeps out and throws out the ones who come here illegally in addition to the ones who do not embrace our values. That means that if the US is playing soccer vs Honduras, that you don’t cheer for the US to lose.
It’s not intellectual, it’s not Weekly Standard stuff. It is man on the street gut-level conservative but civil and tolerant.
#41 by Richard Warnick on July 19, 2010 - 10:13 pm
No make-work programs for people who couldn’t get a job in the real world? There goes the whole intelligence community.
#42 by brewski on July 19, 2010 - 11:28 pm
My wife works at one of the state universities. She has co-workers who the dean refuses to let go even though the dean knows that they are totally incompetent and don’t do anything at work. The dean refuses to let these people go and carries them as charity cases for the sole reason that the dean knows that they couldn’t get a job anywhere else. So while these deadweights are carried on the budget for their incompetence, classes are cut, programs are cut, student fees are raised, benefits are cut. These are your taxes.
#43 by cav on July 20, 2010 - 8:31 am
God forces Glen Beck to see his blindness!
Goldline (big G, B. sponsor) investigation; ‘As reported by ABC News, the investigation centers on pressure that Goldline is alleged to have put on customers to purchase limited-edition gold coins, whose value is much less than if the customers bought gold bullion instead.
“There are two main types of complaints we’re seeing,” Adam Radinsky of the Santa Monica City Attorney’s Office told ABC. “One is that customers say that they were lied to and misled in entering into their purchases of gold coins. And the other group is saying that they receive something different from what they had ordered.”
Sometimes people are only as stoopid as the sales pitch will allow them to be. Who’s to say? Lies have been quite effective in the past.
#44 by James Farmer on July 20, 2010 - 1:49 pm
“So much for sovereign, illegal and unprovoked.”
Again, brew to the rescue for the Bush administration. Now that’s revisionist history if ever there were.
#45 by brewski on July 20, 2010 - 2:25 pm
For you it is about defending or not defending Bush.
For me it is accurate use of the English language.
#46 by James Farmer on July 20, 2010 - 11:31 pm
brew: Your lecture on my use of “sovereign,” while debatable, is well taken. Apparently, though, you forgot to lecture me also on my use of the terms unjust, unprovoked and illegal. Did you concede on those points? Or are we just to accept that if the brew hits 1 of 4 on or near the mark, then we should properly concede the other three?
Regardless, and again, with all due respect, I find you a revisionist apologist for the Bush administration.
#47 by brewski on July 21, 2010 - 9:34 am
I already addressed those as well.
#48 by james farmer on July 21, 2010 - 1:20 pm
Well, you can have your opinion, but you remain in the 20% club who share that opinion.
#49 by brewski on July 21, 2010 - 1:26 pm
Who share what opinion?
#50 by Dwight Sheldon Adams on July 26, 2010 - 1:30 pm
I imagine the dean might frame the circumstances a bit differently.
#51 by Dwight Sheldon Adams on July 26, 2010 - 1:31 pm
Glenden–
On just the quality of the writing, this is one of your best pieces. Bravo.
–Dwight
#52 by brewski on July 26, 2010 - 2:50 pm
DSA,
Actually no.
#53 by Dwight Sheldon Adams on July 27, 2010 - 9:18 am
Please get the dean to provide his own answers in his own words.